Any job done without planning is a candidate for disaster.
30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad. I figure more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers. That's 10-1/2 hours a day -- still not so bad.
3 speakers are three drops. No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or in-ceiling speakers. Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in 2 minutes flat. Piece of cake.
Each to his own I guess. For many years I ran a modestly successful installing dealership. Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available at CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a few percent more.
Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and easy. I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends of every cable. Labels, tags and such often come off during construction. Sharpie will be there until Jesus comes back.
That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive rings.
It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill, hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.
You're starting to sound like a paid installer. It just doesn't take that long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.
Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long. If one of my guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.
Perhaps that's because you're guessing. I cater to DIYers and I help them plan jobs all the time. It's not as tough as you might think it is.
You've probably been confusing alarm installers with DIYers. :^)
Fire your crew. I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a fortune on wasted labor.
Not bad??? I'd call that terrible.
Yes you do need to mark both ends. Lists, drawings and legends have a way of getting lost every now and then. It takes only seconds to write the cable number and its function at each end. In the event of a mishap you'll save a lot of time toning out your runs. Also, with cables marked at both ends two people can do the punch down simultaneously once the home is finished.
Ok, so maybe I'm not your average DIY'er. I've done several commerical installations before I put the 140 drops into my house. I had to do them in a weekend as my general contractor had me scheduled as the last of the subs before the drywall guys showed up on Monday.
Anyway with the help of 3 unskilled teenagers we did it without too much problems in a weekend. I had lots of time to chorograph it all. It also helped that (with a few exceptions) I had 2 to 6 cables running to a particular location (pulled multipul cables at one time). The number of locations was probably only about 35. Also this was only nailing up outlet boxes and putting in the cable. I terminated it by myself on nights and weekends for about a month after the house was done.
When I did my commercial installations, I was typically paid by the cable termination. The term used for this was "a drop".
In a commercial installation it is fairly common to have several hundred cables run between wiring closets (a MDF to an IDF, if you recognized those terms). Using your definition, these hundred of cables would be a single drop. Using mine it would be a hundred drops.
No flame. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen a proper definition of the term.
A "drop" is a location where wire(s) terminate outside the wire closet. To me it makes NO difference if there is one wire or ten cables going to a box, the time required is about the same so I figure labor by the box (drop). It looks like the OP did the same since he has "15 component (3 RG6) drops" which I count as 15 not 5 or 45 drops. Additionally the OP said "29 speaker drops". I don't think he is running mono so 29 (being an odd number) would mean 29 stereo pairs.
Any contractor that charges you a flat price per cable for HA work is not dealing in reality. The big cost is labor, not materials.
20 minutes per drop is with two people. Adding an extra person does not cut the time in half. The only way to cut the time in half is to have two crews (4 people) pulling wire at the same time. This requires quite a bit of coordination and is beyond the "You and a helper (perhaps your SO)" like you proposed to the OP.
How do you get 10.5 hours? 90 drops X 30 minutes per drop = 45 hours ( which is more reasonable for DIY). Over two days that is 22.5 hours per day. Even divided by 2 (which would be 4 people) that is still 11.25 hours per day.
My original (and unchanged) point is that even at the "professional" speed of 20 minutes per drop this project would be quite an undertaking for a two day weekend.
I use metal backboxes (Speakercraft) for speakers. No big deal in time or cost since the finish is faster, easier, the sound is better and the fire rating is maintained. My only point was that for speaker wiring you have to get the cables to three places which adds about 10 minutes per stereo pair.
18 volt drills will run a 3/4" NailEater (auger bit) all day long with two batteries. You still need AC drill for the trunk line holes through joists, top plates, bottom plates and subfloor which can be up to 3" in diameter and 3.75" deep. No battery drill or 3/8" consumer drill can handle that.
If you have your planning done each box will have some sort of name. Gather the cables going to that box and tape them together with light colored electrical tape (white or yellow scotch 33 is the best). Pull the cable bundle to the box. Get the enough slack on the wire closet end and tape the bundle again, label the bundle and cut. When you get ready to finish the wire closet cut the cables out of the bundle one at a time, terminate and mark your terminations. Saves LOTS of time on jobs with hundreds of cables.
A home that will hold 29 pairs of speakers is likely "exceptionally large".
My point is that it takes time.
Drive rings work fine for alarm wiring and cat3 phone stuff but are not appropriate for cat5 (or above) or RG6. In horizontal runs the narrow contact point at the bottom will deform the cable over time possibly resulting in degraded performance. Also to insert cables in a installed drive ring a significant amount of twisting is required. If a installer is not careful cables (especially coaxial) can be damaged.
I prefer driving a 1/2" NM staple in line with the cable bundle and attaching the bundle with cable ties (2 or 3 on horizontal runs) or velcro straps. You don't want the cables to deform over time. I have seen RG6 degrade after installation to where it would not support a satellite signal.
I am a paid installer that does top notch work and I am quite fast. The OPs drop list would result in a minimum of 120 cables. At 90' per run that is 10800' of cable. That is at least 11 boxes. Everything takes time and time goes by quickly when you are on deadline. I don't think 30 minutes for set up and 30 minutes for tear down are unreasonable so 1 hour per day is a good estimate.
I never said it was going to take an hour to unload the truck. The TOTAL time alloted for set up and tear down is 1 hour per day. A guy has to pee sometime and at 20 minutes per drop you don't have time for much besides wire work. One hour per day is fairly stingy. With "real" workmen you have 30 min for lunch and two 15 min breaks. A homeowner with drywallers on the way has a bit more motivation.
No I'm not guessing. I have wired a bunch houses and I keep decent records. Unless you are Superman or Joe Fumblefingers it is going to take you around 20 to 30 minutes per drop to do HA type prewires (new construction, 1 to 6 cables per drop).
I would like to see a crew that could do the job faster. That job had
130 cables which worked out to around 20,000 feet of cable. The cost on the wire alone was $2428.50. My estimate was was within 1% of the actual cost for the prewire. All of this AND part of the basement was a crawlspace due to rock.
I would like to see you do better. That job had 70 cables (6,000 feet). If you want to say each cable is a drop then that is 9 minutes per.
One guy in the wiring closet and one guy at the wall jacks. The only one that has a bunch of cables to sort is the guy in the closet. The guy doing the wall jacks hooks the white RG6 to the white jack. the black RG6 to the black jack, the grey catX to the gray jack and the white catX to the white jack. Not hard.
Labeling each wire with a sharpie is time consuming and can be covered if they spray paint which is very common for walls these days. It also only works on light colored wires. Whatever, my system works for me and your system worked for you when you were installing alarms.
A diversity of viewpoints is what makes this forum fun. I don't think we are really that different in our time estimations. You say "30 minutes per drop for first timers" I say 20 to 30 minutes for normal people. I can't imagine that you actually think adding an hour per day for miscellaneous tasks is excessive.
I think where we vary is that you are selling something and have minimized the effort on what looks like a fairly large job. Anyone installing 29 stereo speaker pairs is doing a fairly large job. The speakers alone using your "30 minutes per drop for first timers" are going to run almost 15 hours (2 normal 8 hour workdays).
I didn't take it as a flame. I hope you didn't feel that I was minimizing your work.
I don't think you will find a "proper" definition of most terms used in HA. At least not like the organization imposed in telcom.
Pay per termination is used in some commercial work. However few people will pay 100% for each termination for two or more cables terminated in the same box unless forced by tariff or standing contract.
I would never call "hundreds of cables" a drop.
For estimation purposes I look at how many spools of cable I will have on a job to determine the maximum number of cables in a drop. In no case that I can recall have I pulled more than 10 cables at a time. In general I pull one drop at a time due to friction issues unless the drops are the same distance from the closet. To do otherwise tends to mess up the trunk lines.
I have DSC Power Series Alarm systems. So far, I haven't found anyone how offers low cost monitoring in FL. However, I haven't been pushing very hard on this.
Hey Lewis, if you decide to move to the northwest look me up and I'll give you a job.
Nobody actually answered this guys question, on costs. I'll give you an idea here, just a ball-park. Keep in mind I'm not a "do-it-yourselfer", but a business destined for profit and growth. It's working for us....
A pair of speakers with volume control location in a room (16-4 w/Cat5) RI only $195 per room. Includes ring if appropriate. Trim separate of course.
Regardless of the content of a drop, and yes we use that same term, we price it *per cable*. An Ultrahome bundle of 2 RG6 and 2 Cat5 is four cables. $45 each cable includes rough-in and trim.
Head end equipment is separate, and things like Cat6 or a mini-coax feed (5 coax w/2 STP) to a display are more due to raw material costs.
I guess his project with 11 rooms of speakers and the rest will run around $7000-8000. Add speakers, VC's and/or keypads, terminal equipment and this may be a $15-20K job. I'll do these all day long if I can find them...
Interesting that you mentioned Dave Huras because I've been looking for a current WinXp replacement of the DOS based scheduler X10EC I still use from him, mainly because of its sun times update capability. That's pretty much the reason why I still keep a small DOS partition I boot into on every Sunday but I'd like to finally get rid off that necessity and be completely on Windows. Any such program would have to have at least the same capabilities as the DOS based version.
I see that Dave still has a Web site up there
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but he seems to mostly be busy with IR applications and the Windows version of X10EC is of Win95 vintage. I guess one can always try to email him and ask, but from what I see on his Web site, I think I already know his answer. :-(
hi all... i hv 2 machines which i wish to network one of then has an internet connection using USB ADSL WAN modem... Rhine III fast ethernet adapter installed... and the other one has realtech family pc fast ethernet adapter installed... i wanted to know...if i have to install another NIC for the computer with USB ADSL modem...does the modem use a nic...also please suggest minimal hardware which i would be needing to network the two machines reply asap Thanks in advance:-) Aditi Sharma
From: "Julie Jacobson"
> Newsgroups: comp.home.automation
> Subject: Re: Washer/dryer detection
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:16:04 GMT
>
> If you can believe it, the May 1997 issue of Popular Home Automation (now
> Home Automation magazine) has a complete DIY article on this, including > graphics.
> If you contact the current editor, Rachel Cericola, maybe she can fax it to
> you. ( snipped-for-privacy@ehpub.com)
> -julie
I'm interested in getting a copy of this article, or an updated one if available.
In addition to the previously announced Z-Wave giveaway (which is still active BTW), we having another giveaway on the CQC support forum. This one is a complete setup for someone who is looking to do an 802.11b wireless Ethernet network. If you want to enter, sign up on the support forum and post a message to the giveaway thread. All giveway threads are in the General Automation section. A link to the support forum is on the bottom of the main web page at
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Winners of previous giveaways within the last 2 months are not eligible, so that we can increase other's chances of winning
This equipment is 'open box' but all in perfect shape and *very* lightly used. It is in original packaging and with documentation
This giveaway includes:
LinkSys WAP11 wireless access point. This is a box that sits on the wired network and provides the wireless access to the network.
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LinkSys WUSB11 wireless adaptor. This is a wireless network adaptor that is for those places where a plug in card isn't quite enough. This one is an external USB box with a little antenna. So it could be used for a remote machine in a fixed position, or outdoors with the laptop where you need more power/coverage.
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LinkSys WCF12 wireless compact flash adaptor. This one is a CF card that provides wireless access for a PocketPC or other device that takes a CF card and that has networking capabilities.
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LinkSys WPC11 wireless PCMCIA card. This one is a PCMCIA card that provides wireless access for a laptop or other device that accepts PCMCIA cards.
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So, there it is. A pretty good starter kit. Keep in mind that this is all
802.11*B* hardware, not the *G* varietal. So it's in the 10Mb/s range.
------------------------------------ Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
I ordered 3 WS12As (new, in packaging). When they arrived my troubles began... I used two of them to replace smart-home appliance(relay) decora switches which had been working fine those locations (but i wanted dimming capability, hence the swap-out. my loads are all incadescent).
Wired them all up, local control works fine. Turning them off remotely once they are turned on works fine. Now here's the tricky part:
If i turn one off, then hit another button on my palmpad, then try to turn the original light back on, it is now unresponsive to any X10 commands i send, until i locally toggle the light. In otherwords, the switch responds fine if you "initialized it" by starting it on and turning it off w/ X10, but as soon as another PLC signal goes out over the line, it seems to become unresponsive to any X10 commands. This behavior is identical for all 3 switches, i've moved my transceiver around, etc etc etc.....
Has anyone seen/heard of anything like this? I hate to think I managed to get 3 bum units.
Presumably you are interested in making your own connector. Unfortunately, the PCI-MINI is more than a plug and cable. If you break one open you'll find a pair of tiny circuit boards. One side appears to be a voltage shifter. If you just need the PCI-MINI and don't have a source, you might want to browse my website. I sell them, along with downloading software.
I am looking to take an idea I have had for several years and work on bringing it to the market.
I am looking for someone who can develop a small hardware/firmware device. You will need knowlegde of devloping ethernet firmware application, electronic circuitry design, and other knowledge skills. Contacts and knowledge in manufacturing from design, and packaging is a plus.
If you or someone you know is interested please contact me throught the contact form on my website below.
You will need to sign a Non Compete agreement and a Non Disclosure agreement prior to getting details of the project. There is no pay up front but you will be given royalties from the sale of the product. You must be a US citizen, and have a resume for submittal.
College, and Vocational students may apply, but must have a base knowledge to complete the project over the summer.
Hi, I have an ademco vista 20p with two 4229 expansion zones and one
5881H RF receiver. I notice when I program a zone on the 4229 as either type 04 interior follower or type 10 interior with delay, that, when armed in away mode, it causes an alarm event as if it were an instant perimeter type zone. When I arm in stay mode it works as expected (no alarm event). When I arm in away mode I can enter through my entry delay 1 or entry delay 2 door, trip an interior follower zone wired into one of the first 8 zones wired into the main alarm board with no problems, but if I then trip the interior follower zone wired into the 4229 expansion zone, an alarm event occurs. Has anybody else ever had problems where a zone seems to work properly but does not when the alarm is armed in a certain way? Any help would be appreciated. Please reply to this post, my email address is just a spam magnet. Thanks.
Hi, I was just searching for posts about ademco products and saw a post where someone mentioned "I have seen mother boards smoke because of staples through keypad drops." I was always wondering what would happen if a burglar broke in and, instead of trying to find the control panel to disable the alarm, just ripped the keypad off the wall and shorted the wires together while the entry delay was beeping at them telling them to disarm. I've never wanted to risk toasting the control board to try it but while wiring them up it seemed like sending the 12V out to the keypad was risky if they didn't somehow isolate that 12V from the main 12V power. Does anybody know if Ademco panels have this achilles heel? Surely Ademco put a resistor or something on the "red keypad pwr (+)" terminal so shorting it to the "Black Keypad Ground (-)" would not bring down the entire panel. Anybody have a spare panel they can try it on? Is there a brand of alarm that does not have this problem? Thanks. My email is a spam magnet so I don't check it any more, please don't reply to it.
Hi Robert, I just went to your web site and saw the Ademco Vista 20P for $118.25. I'm interested but I have some questions. Previously I've been buying my alarm parts on eBay. I went through several 20P boards until I finally found one that had all the features the manual described. I put food on the table by doing embedded C programming so I'm pretty sure I was able to figure out how to program the alarm correctly. (Not boasting, just letting you know I'm not a newbie to programming hardware) Various people told me that some 20P's are made for ADT or others and may not have all the functionality described. (All boards said 20P on them, some just couldn't be programmed as such) Such is life on eBay I guess. My current board is having difficulty with interior follower zones on 4229 expansion devices. Arm stay all is well, arm away, enter, trip interior follower type 04 wired to main board all is well, trip interor follower type 04 wired to 4229 expansion board causes instant alarm. I tried changing it to type 10 interior delay and had the same problem. It seems to me that the firmware on the board has a bug but I don't know. To get rid of this problem I'd like to buy a known good board from a seller that will stand behind their product and I'll sell the bad board on eBay described as such. However, if I buy a board from you and it has the same problem, can I return it? It looks like the boards have serial numbers so not trying to do a bait and switch. Willing to pay more than eBay prices but wanting more than eBay service to go with it. Can you help me? Thanks.
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