Re: Quality Ademco engineering

You seem to be an expert on this stuff

Unless he really feels that way... then its an Al Sharpton moment...

When something is listed as compatible, I shouldn't have to click on a link to find out that it is not compatible. Claiming that Honeywell disclosed this incompatibility is like claiming Bush disclosed something to Congress because it's mentioned on page 1347 of the federal budget. In a footnote.

The instruction sheet for the 6160 feels it's important to tell people that permanent backlighting is an option on some controls, but it doesn't feel it's important to mention that the fricking keypad doesn't even work on some panels. You tell me which is more important information.

Use a different model keypad? Like what, exactly? And notice how earlier models of this keypad apparently were compatible, only they removed the compatibility.

Sharpton actually surprised me the other day. Maher commented how the civil rights movement had moved from the courts to the media and how it's now all about playing "gotcha" with whoever makes a racist comment. He also asked Sharpton if the whole affair isn't also about freedom of speech.

Sharpton's answer was that blacks were now exercising their freedom of speech to let advertisers know they will not purchase goods from companies if their money is being used to pay people like Imus to insult them.

I figure Imus was trying to be cool, hip, keen or whatever adjective he thinks young people want to be today. In doing so he managed to show his disdain for blacks and give people who already dislike him some good ammunition. He's a jerk who thought he could make himself look good by attacking people who are much better than he ever was. It's nice he got fired.

It would be better if it said "Compatible with some versions, click for details." Also, Honeywell's site would be better IMO if they used standard colors and underlines for links. On some pages links are red. On others they are gray. The site doesn't work with FireFox. Nevertheless, the gentleman is correct in saying that the information is there for the viewing.

That's an unfair comparison. Bush can't read and he thinks a footnote is something your friends write on your toes in magic marker ink after you pass out drunk.

The instruction sheet is intended for use with current production controls. Do you want them to also include a note that the 6160 doesn't work with a 342R?

The note was posted before the 6139 was discontinued.

They didn't "remove" the compatibility. The

6160 was built for newer control panels. It was incidentally compatible with some of the older models but those were not it's target systems. They can't be expected to make every new keypad compatible with every obsolete control panel.

I'm not saying they're perfect. But the accusation that they don't provide the data was wrong. The fallback position implying that it's obscured behind tons of other data is not a fair characterization. After all, if even a lowly "parts pusher" could find it in a single click surely a man of your stature should have noticed that the model is a clickable link and then followed it to learn the whole story.

Heh... Uh-huh... And earlier you also criticized another poster for employing "dud" links. You're the last person that should be advising anyone about web site design...

That's great when it's not near closing time, and you're not stuck trying to get the system armed so everyone (including you) can actually go home.

I went and hauled a zone expander off the shelf today and looked inside and I'll be darned if there isn't now a one page sheet packed with the unit warning you not to use it with a CO detector - this is what happens when you spend all your time as an office weenie. I humbly retract my previous comment.

Alright, in the interests of generating some discussion ...

My Personal B**** List

1. 6160 Keypad ? back light turns off after 2 seconds ? make it longer (10 seconds)

1. Vista 15/20 ? you can?t put a CO detector wired Open/Cross on a zone expander only on the panel.

2. When programming used codes it boots you out of programming if you hesitate for more than 3 seconds (to look in the manual to confirm the next step).

1. Zone expanders are huge and make it impossible to install more than 2 in the enclosure without it looking like a mess.

2. Low temp ratings on Sensors and Modules a. Motion Sensors ? The DT series when manufactured by C&K used to be rated to -25°C. The DT72xx series are only rated to -10°C, and all other motions are rated to only 0°C. I have never been given an answer as to whether these temperatures are arbitrarily chosen by the engineering team (can people in Long Island grasp that it can get this cold) or if they are realistic (i.e.: it won?t work reliably below this temperature). Ultimately, we end up having to use a sensor from another manufacturer in any application that is unheated.

b. Wireless products ? similarly rated to only 0°C, is this an arbitrary rating? Or can you derate the battery life at lower temperatures?

c. FG1625 rated to - 10°C.

1. User Literature ? the manuals need to be re-written to make them easier to understand (Change the font too ? Times New Roman look out of date). Every panel needs a one page ?Dummies guide to your new alarm system? user summary that is graphics rich. (Again see the examples from the C&K Sierra panel)

1. Vista 15/20 ? if you program a relay or output to trip on TLM failure there is no way to program the relay/output to reset on TLM reset.

2. There needs to be a BIG (oval shaped?) opening in the back of the enclosure. (See Figure 1). Our preferred installation method is to fish the wires inside the wall and in the back of the panel to avoid having a big bundle of wires running down the wall which is both sucks aesthetically and from a security point of view (I?ve been to a couple of breakins where someone has just chopped the bundle and torn the panel off the wall).

1. Vista 32FB. When used as a fire transmitter (replacement for the Silent Knight 5104 which we used to use), will not send a restoral if the Fire Panel restores. After silencing and resetting the fire alarm panel, somebody has to go to the keypad and reset the 32FB as well.

2. There are no stickers available for the keypads on which you can list 16 zones (one problem). So we went and got some custom made. However the space on the inside of the keypad door is limited to where you can put a sticker and how big it can be by its design. (Reinforcing ribs). This space should be as big as possible to accommodate a sticker with zones, shortened user guide etc.

1. True Alpha description programming ? We want to be able to program every word that appears on the keypad rather than having to select from a list of canned words. We also want to be able to program in Descriptors for the partitions (Shop vs. Office)

2. Every time you power up the panel it should demand you set the date/time before letting you do anything else. (Like a Silent Knight panel). Invariably when a customer goes to look in history the date/time was never set and they have to try and extrapolate the information they are looking for.

1. Make the transformer for the Lynx (9V) look distinctive (shape, color whatever)from the 16V transformers that all the other panels use. We have blown up a couple of Lynxes when someone grabs the wrong transformer.

2. The installation manuals don?t reference ULC (or cUL) install options but they do reference the UL install options.

1. When viewing history it continues to show current activity (i.e.: you are trying to view history but people are walking around in the office so the motions and doors keep showing up.)

2. Vista 15p- 20p panels should have both a trigger out put that can handle 300ma for strobes (like the DSC Panels) instead of 40ma and 20ma that cannot do anything but wire into a low current relay. They should also have a dry contact programmable relay like the C&K Sierra; this would add flexibility to the panel and set it above the competition

1. Redesign the keypad door closure. Presently Ademco keypads have very fragile plastic tabs that secure the keypad door up, these have been breaking all the time, very poor design leading to customer frustration and free service calls. To my knowledge we have not been able to order replacement doors for the 6150 and 6160 kp?s. .

2. User?s manual for the 6270 Touchpad does not have instructions on how to change the Master User?s Code in it.

1. Revise the packaging ? the large piece of #6 Polystyrene that holds the contents of the can in place cannot be easily recycled. It should be replaced with a piece of cardboard.

2. Add a tactile ?divot? to the [5] key so someone with little or no vision can navigate the keypad ? a popular feature on the C&K Sierra.

If I was designing the Next Generation Panel it would

1. Have a built in NIC and RJ-45 for IP connection (in addition to a dialer connection).

1. If there are to be multiple models of keypads (Alpha vs. Icon vs. LED), the back plate, front cover and keypad cover would all be universal (only the electronics inside the keypad would change from model to model). The inside of the keypad cover would have the largest possible space for an instruction sticker.

2. Rather than build a keypad with a built in RF receiver (or Voice Module for that matter) I would design these module to replace the standard back plate on the keypad. If a customer wants a keypad with a receiver you remove the back plate on the keypad, screw the back plate with the receiver to the wall and the keypad snaps on top of it. Similarly the voice annunciator snaps behind the keypad and if you need to the modules can be stacked to create a keypad with a receiver and a voice annunciator. Each module increases the thickness of the keypad by 3/8? or so. Less items to manufacture, stock etc.

1. Simplify the programming ? does anyone use Ademco 4+1 anymore?. There are two standards for sending signals in this industry. The De Jure Standard is SIA (and your new panel should support it) and the De Facto Standard is Contact ID. This industry needs to be dragged (kicking and screaming if necessary) into the 21st century and embraced industry standards like the computer industry. Twenty years ago it seems that every manufacturer had their own proprietary scheme for networking computers. Now I can go buy any NIC install it any PC and expect it to work with any router.

a. Select the format (SIA or CID) the signals sent are all predetermined (it?s a standard, right?)

b. What do you want sent ? select On or Off for i. Alarms ii. Restoral iii. Openings and Closings iv. etc

1. No proprietary modem needed to download. For direct connection would use the Ethernet connection (and benefit from it?s vastly better speeds).

1. An (optional) RS232 output module if you need to connect to some other system.

2. Supervised power Supplies (1, 3 and 5 amp) that connect to the keybus and report AC failure and Low battery conditions

1. A wireless bridge to connect two wired portions of a system together. (Example a manufacturing plant that has a system in one building. Then a second building is built and we install a Supervised power supply and more wired devices on a keybus in it (keypads, zone expanders etc) and then tie the two buildings together with a Wireless Bridge (like trying two portions of a LAN with a wireless bridge).

2. A small panel (max 48 zones) should be able to partition into more than 2 areas (the Sierra was capable of 8 areas).

1. All panels and zone expanders would use a common resistor value. (A common problem we find now is the zone expander has been wired with the wrong value EOL, the right value for the panel)

2. Wireless products based on Zigbee (802.15) protocol to benefit from the ?on the fly? mesh networking capability of this protocol. You could also benefit from the ability to buy pre-built assemblies offshore. A ?Universal? transmitter module that will accept a NO or NC sensor and has enough batteries to be able to provide 12VDC to attached devices (CO detectors etc). This would allow the use of non-wireless devices that require power.

1. Selectable auto-restore on all fire zones

2. For each partition you can have it report to a different receiver/station (separate account number, phone number, format and what signals you want sent and test frequency)

1. Every zone is configurable

2. No more manuals! ? keypad should be intuitive enough or provide the information you need to use the system ? think of an ATM (Jim Boehmer?from Price?s Alarm)

1. Low battery signals sent to the Mon Center ? there should be a different signal sent to the MC for a Low Battery condition if the AC has failed (critical!) than if there is a Low Battery but the AC is still on (not so critical). (Jim Boehmer?from Price?s Alarm)

Low Battery from a Wireless Sensor. Residentiallly, rather than having the panel beep at 0230 in the morning (or whenever the low battery comes in) and wake up the homeowner ? just have it appear on the keypad and not allow you to arm or disarm until you acknowledge the trouble (that intuitive keypad again) with your code (logged to history so that we can prove to the customer someone knew about the trouble). Sample message - ?there is a low battery in sensor 12 (Basement Smoke Detector) ? you must acknowledge this by entering your PIN

THIS COLLECTION OF THOUGHTS HAVE BEEN GATHERED FROM VARIOUS SMART PEOPLE I HAVE SPOKEN TOO OVER THE YEARS - DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE I CAME UP WITH THEM ON MY OWN!!

Umm okay... You could have seen it from the comfort of your chair by simply logging into the MyWebTech site.

LOL... I want to live in Utopia too. I'll address every one of your points when I get an hour or so to reply. I still did not see any bugs on the list.

I got a better one, the 6150RF doesn't time out yet the standard 6150 and

6160 do

It won't if you use a graphics keypad

True

Yea I'd love to see that

Well there's this guy here named Jim and...... :)

Well you can download Ademco over the internet with a 7845i and it's MUCH faster, the problem with modems is it adds cost to the panel that few people are willing to pay

Ditto

I wanted to see what direction an installer would get - not what they post to a website.

nope, i was feeling like bottom posting the other day..

"Apu Nahasapeemapetil>

Yup got a few pall around here that are in the AA,too bad they don't speak English they could help you..

"Mark Leuck" a écrit dans le message de news:

46259952$0$24738$ snipped-for-privacy@roadrunner.com...

Thank you!!!

you just help me understand something!!

No one in his right mind could think that its fair that any should be killed...

but we all know that a black can be killed with out a problem and a Muslim baby is an all ok target practice ,a Korean, a Vietnamese,a French man(if not a Jew..) all those can and should be killed if you feel like it!!

now I have a good understanding of the world you live in....

Well if you beleive that i want to kill jews just for the fun of it,then you better hide from toilet bowl,cause your a POS

I had to google this name so i could understand what your talking about..But it didnt turned back anything interresting,justa that it was a caracter in Happy Days

Since i dont watch old American TV show,I dont understand what your talking about... But it made me think about one caracter that you would fit, his name was ticoune and the tv show was Le temps d'une paix

Stop looking at youre reflection from your computer monitor,that way you will stop thinking that every one look like you..you know that there is now , computer with anti-glare ....could be time to upgrade...

whats with this cookie monster thing? i dont even know this fellow..and dont want to start searching for it..