Your Favorite Install Tool?

Wierd Installs, Ok, here goes.........

The worst I think I have every seen was a wood frame house in Milwaukee in which the installer ran all the wires to the windows on the 'outside' of the house, around the house, stappled to the siding, under the roof overhanges and then each run down to the windows. He drilled directly into and through the window frames to his alarm window sensors.

Oh yes, the wire was brown, AC lamp zip cord and the window switches were standard industrial mechanical limit switches. All the brown zip cord wrapped around the house and back into the wall into, you guessed it, a home made alarm bell in a box control. I wish I had a picture of the mess, but this was way before digital cameras. The house was a light biege, so the house kind of looked like a ice cream sundae with stringy chocolate syrup on it.

It was so long ago that I can't remember what I said to the customer, but anything nice and not laughing I am sure was hard at the time.

BobbyD

Crash Gord>Here's a better one (or at least weirder):

If you are looking for something to fish and run through framing then look at a flexible bit such as a Diversa-Bit.

BobbyD

Sylva>alarman wrote:

Yes, it is a locking knife on one side and a wall saw on the other. Replaceable blades and tips.

BobbyD

JoeRais> Does that have 2 types of blades on slides?

Sounds like a cable TV installer did it

Ok, then that's what I was picturing.

I'll try to see what I can find locally, and if I have to I'll mail order.

This is the part I don't get ... If that were me, that fish tape would have headed straight for the first small gap between the switch box and the wall stud, and wedged itself in there real good, without my even applying any kind of force, which it would of course respond to by wedging itself in even further. That's just how fish tapes are with me. :-(

I even managed very recently to put in what must have been a nearly straight bend in a fish tape, simply by feeding it down a hole in the top plate (correct term?) from the attic, and trying to get it to come out a switch box. I eventually managed, but only after cutting off the bend, putting in a new hook, and trying again. And this is in an inside wall (no insulation)!

Got it, ok. Like the idea. Am expecting to buy backup "egg beaters" to replace those that will certainly unscrew themselves while wedged between a switch box and wall stud ... :-)

.... and your wife/girlfriend/significant-other is up in the attic pulling the rod up from there then?

I've only ever worked with the one kind, and it has never been a pleasant experience. Thanks for explaining the others.

My father lives in Las-Vegas, though I've never been. He's described to me how much fun it can be to do landscaping in your own back yard there! Most days, I would likely trade our cold and snow for a little dry heat. :-)

I don't know whether that specific one is available here, but I do know that I've seen flexible bits. I will get myself a couple of lengths when I'm about to start installing.

drill through the wiring _after_ the water pipes. I'm sure I can handle this... ;-)

Actually, the 110v wiring is the one item I'm least worried about. I have a very good picture of where all the wiring is in my house, so as long as I don't do anything entirely out of left field, I'm likely to not go near enough to it while running alarm wires to risk any damage.

The interesting thing that these discussions really has outlined, is that with practice and experience comes the ability to keep all of these factors in mind (at the same time) while doing the job. Thanks to all who have offered their experience.

On the one hand, nothing will replace the experience that someone who's been doing this for years already has. On the other hand, if said experience can be helpful in keeping a determined do-it-yourselfer from making the rookie mistakes, I'll take as much as I can get.

(oh ... man ... you don't want to be subjected to my written French ...)

To be honest, the things I need the most help with are the types of things that we've been discussing here. I appreciate your offer, but I'm always a lot more comfortable getting this type of information in a discussion forum such as this one than in a one-on-one conversation, and I'm certainly not looking for someone to do the work for me.

On the one hand, with a one-on-one conversation, the discussion can be more streamlined to my specific installation in my specific house, but on the other hand, in a more general discussion I'm able to get different angles and benefit from the different experiences offered by all who partake, and I'll be able to apply these to my own situation. As I've mentioned already, I'll even be able to apply some of what's been discussed here to other projects that aren't related to my alarm installation, but that will have me running wires through walls and in the attic.

I'll remember to keep the alarm panel to under 12 feet from the floor, and to keep the cut-off labelled ends from the service loops at all my sensors. ;-)

Incidentally, there is something that I still haven't asked, and have been trying to puzzle out. I'm sure that I can get several different answers, each with benefits in certain cases, if I ask it right ...

Where exactly should the sensors go? I know that with motion sensors, I want to cover the traffic areas between livable rooms as well as possible, for example. I'm not (currently) planning any glass-break sensors (if anyone breaks these windows without drawing attention, the alarm won't draw attention either), or smoke/heat sensors (we already use battery-powered smoke detectors, and plug-in CO detectors).

What I don't know is where to put the magnetic switches for doors and windows. Hinge side? Strike side? Top? Bottom? Middle? Things to be aware of and to look out for?

I'm assuming that I will have the round "concealed" switches in a front and back door, and I may want to use the same for a patio door, and that I'll use the rectangular surface-mount switches (these have gotten quite small, at least) for windows (no sliding windows -- all openable windows swing open from a manual crank at the base of each window).

Should I consider the concealed sensors for the windows as well, or are there reasons (such as "don't risk breaking seals in your windows") not to do that?

I do know (well, "believe"; it has happened to a friend's system) that with the concealed sensors in doors, if they're improperly installed, false alarms can result from the house shifting, causing the sensor to become misaligned (or someone knocking hard?). I'd like to avoid that if I can, and I don't doubt that you guys each have methods which do, so I'm hoping you can advise me accordingly.

Are there any photographs online that show how (and how not) to install these sensors?

Basement windows have been bolted shut with aluminum bars in the tracks (screwed into the tracks), but perhaps for these I should be considering impact sensors in case anyone attempts to break them. Are impact sensors (not) as good as, better than, etc. glass-break sensors?

This may be too many questions, I know, but I think I've gotten the information I needed about how to run the wiring (I'll know for sure when I actually try one, of course), but now I need to think about _where_ to run the wiring.

I'm intending to run it all back to a single point where the alarm panel will be (at a reasonable height!). There I'll install a number of terminal strips and use wiring between these and the alarm panel itself to configure sensors into each zone. This will give me the most flexibility with regard to upgrading the panel in the future, as I'll be able to rewire the sensors then in whatever way is appropriate for whatever the upgrade panel will be.

By the time an intruder will have gotten to the panel location to attempt to disable it, if they haven't triggered a minimum of two sensors (at least one of which with immediate response) to get there, there will likely have been enough going wrong that whether the intruder finds the alarm panel or not will have been rather irrelevant.

I wish I'd known about this newsgroup years ago! Thanks to all who have been offering advice. ...

That's not unexpected advice. However, I already have the (wired only) alarm panel I intend to use, and although I'm not very good at it, I'm also persistent enough to get the wires run. I expect it will help a lot that I'm not likely to need to do any of the wiring through the attic.

Perhaps, but it is a valid comment ...

Right. I had the "taught" part in high-school (an electrical program at a technical school), and although I never had to cut a fish tape then, I still wasn't particularly good at it. Since then, some employment I've had has cause me to need to run wires through walls, ceilings, under floors, etc., usually requiring a fish tape, but that has never been my full-time job, and I've never gotten to the point of "just give it a twist and out it pops ..."

Well, you certainly obviously have a good picture in your mind of what you're drilling into, though you can't actually see it. :-)

For me it was drilling up from the basement into a wall, for telephone wiring. Came out through the quarter-round at the base! :-( In another case, I came out even in front of the quarter round (despite having measured very carefully)! I'm not _really_ so inept, but the lack of experience really does show when you work on this kind of thing.

These are the kinds of things you guys all seem to do, perhaps with different details, that makes the rest of us go "how'd he do that?" :-)

Never had a problem on PSUs that have a full-size terminal strip with Philips screws. I wouldn't use it on those with the small recessed slots, that would just be silly.

A friend was having a cable outlet installed in his apartment for a cable-internet hookup. The cable installer was drilling down through the floor and hit a 110 wire, and shorted it to something else metal, and started a fire.

Fortunately, his apartment was right across the street from the fire hall.. :)

You could mount the thing right on the sheet metal duct-cut a hole in the back of the panel to line up with the one in your AC duct. Then, mount one o them thar PC cooling fans on the side of your CP to pull the AC through the CP can. Cool.

js

too many words! see inline.....

"Sylvain Robitaille" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@alcor.concordia.ca... | petem wrote: | | > stop giving this much information ..you will make it look like rocket | > science ;-) | | On the one hand, nothing will replace the experience that someone who's | been doing this for years already has. On the other hand, if said | experience can be helpful in keeping a determined do-it-yourselfer from | making the rookie mistakes, I'll take as much as I can get. | | > Switching to French mode........ | | (oh ... man ... you don't want to be subjected to my written French ...) | | > Sylvain si tu veut plus d'info demande moi!! | > je travaille pour la plus grosse compagnie quebecoise en alarme... | | To be honest, the things I need the most help with are the types of | things that we've been discussing here. I appreciate your offer, but | I'm always a lot more comfortable getting this type of information in a | discussion forum such as this one than in a one-on-one conversation, and | I'm certainly not looking for someone to do the work for me. | | On the one hand, with a one-on-one conversation, the discussion can be | more streamlined to my specific installation in my specific house, but on | the other hand, in a more general discussion I'm able to get different | angles and benefit from the different experiences offered by all who | partake, and I'll be able to apply these to my own situation. As I've | mentioned already, I'll even be able to apply some of what's been | discussed here to other projects that aren't related to my alarm | installation, but that will have me running wires through walls and in | the attic. | | I'll remember to keep the alarm panel to under 12 feet from the floor, | and to keep the cut-off labelled ends from the service loops at all | my sensors. ;-) | | Incidentally, there is something that I still haven't asked, and have | been trying to puzzle out. I'm sure that I can get several different | answers, each with benefits in certain cases, if I ask it right ... | | Where exactly should the sensors go? I know that with motion sensors, I | want to cover the traffic areas between livable rooms as well as | possible, for example. I'm not (currently) planning any glass-break | sensors (if anyone breaks these windows without drawing attention, the | alarm won't draw attention either), or smoke/heat sensors (we already | use battery-powered smoke detectors, and plug-in CO detectors).

Read the installation instructions for the model detector you have purchased and for the application you will use it for. Typically PIRS are at 8' fff. I always position them looking into the house to avoid point at hot window curtains that may move when airconditioning comes on...particularaaarllary vertical blinds (!). Glassbreaks are great, I always install a mix of PIRS and GBs.

| What I don't know is where to put the magnetic switches for doors and | windows. Hinge side? Strike side? Top? Bottom? Middle? Things to | be aware of and to look out for?

Mostly dictated by building construction and where you can get a wire TO. My order of preference for doors: Leading Edge a foot above or below lock (easy to service not likely to false do to door warping) Top Middle or towards hinge Hinge side (not like to false but a pain in the butt to get the magnet distance correct so the switch will open when the door opens) BOTTOM? not on a door :-)

Windows: Bottom or leading edge (bottom on sliders if you want to vent the window) Top only when necessary windows vary.

I prefer small surface mount contacts on windows in most cases...due to lightning and other service reasons. In residences I don't like recessed window contacts.

| | I'm assuming that I will have the round "concealed" switches in a front | and back door, and I may want to use the same for a patio door, and that | I'll use the rectangular surface-mount switches (these have gotten quite | small, at least) for windows (no sliding windows -- all openable windows | swing open from a manual crank at the base of each window). | | Should I consider the concealed sensors for the windows as well, or | are there reasons (such as "don't risk breaking seals in your windows") | not to do that? | | I do know (well, "believe"; it has happened to a friend's system) that | with the concealed sensors in doors, if they're improperly installed, | false alarms can result from the house shifting, causing the sensor to | become misaligned (or someone knocking hard?). I'd like to avoid that | if I can, and I don't doubt that you guys each have methods which do, | so I'm hoping you can advise me accordingly. | | Are there any photographs online that show how (and how not) to install | these sensors? | | Basement windows have been bolted shut with aluminum bars in the tracks | (screwed into the tracks), but perhaps for these I should be considering | impact sensors in case anyone attempts to break them. Are impact sensors | (not) as good as, better than, etc. glass-break sensors? | | This may be too many questions, I know, but I think I've gotten the | information I needed about how to run the wiring (I'll know for sure | when I actually try one, of course), but now I need to think about | _where_ to run the wiring. | | I'm intending to run it all back to a single point where the alarm | panel will be (at a reasonable height!). There I'll install a number | of terminal strips and use wiring between these and the alarm panel | itself to configure sensors into each zone. This will give me the most | flexibility with regard to upgrading the panel in the future, as I'll | be able to rewire the sensors then in whatever way is appropriate for | whatever the upgrade panel will be.

| | By the time an intruder will have gotten to the panel location to | attempt to disable it, if they haven't triggered a minimum of two | sensors (at least one of which with immediate response) to get there, | there will likely have been enough going wrong that whether the intruder | finds the alarm panel or not will have been rather irrelevant.

Protect your phone line. By the time an intruder finds your alarm panel the alarm signal will already have been sent to your CS...even if he happens to find the panel hidden under the green tarp 15 feet in the air :-)

| | -- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Sylvain Robitaille snipped-for-privacy@alcor.concordia.ca | | Systems and Network analyst Concordia University | Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Welp yah know...you NEVER know where some dumb electrician has run a wire! I found that out years ago...I was drilling UP above a door header to replace a door switch on a house. Top of the door was less than a foot below the ceiling (old house). ZAP. Of course no one told me the door had actually been a window at one time so I guess the 110 vac had been re-routed from under the window to OVER the door.

| >

| > Sylvain Robitaille wrote: | >

| >> Crash Gordon wrote: | >>

| >>

| >>> Basement is almost the same process...easier if your basement doesn't | >>> have a finished ceiling. | >>

| >>

| >>

| >> The old, very damaged, suspended ceiling was removed the week I bought | >> the house. It's remaining with no ceiling until I finish several | >> rewiring projects, which I admit will be a few years at least. | >>

| >>

| >>> Except you wont have the problem of drilling out the roof...only | >>> smashing into the basement stem wall with your drill bit...and of | >>> course water pipes. | >>

| >>

| >>

| >> Oh yes, of course ... water pipes. Thanks! | >>

| >

| > And 110 wiring... Don't forget 110 wiring. | | A friend was having a cable outlet installed in his apartment for a | cable-internet hookup. The cable installer was drilling down through | the floor and hit a 110 wire, and shorted it to something else metal, | and started a fire. | | Fortunately, his apartment was right across the street from the fire | hall.. :) | | | --- | avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. | Virus Database (VPS): 0543-1, 10/25/2005 | Tested on: 10/25/2005 10:04:11 PM | avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. |

Yer welcome...you can send your donations to ahhhh lets see now...

| > Hint with flex drills... | | I wish I'd known about this newsgroup years ago! Thanks to all who have | been offering advice. ... | | -- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Sylvain Robitaille snipped-for-privacy@alcor.concordia.ca | | Systems and Network analyst Concordia University | Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't get quite that fancy I just cut a small slot in the flexible duct which was very close to the panel.