I have something similar, although it uses LEDs - two white for normal use, one red for... I dunno what for exactly, but it works well. Also has the adjustable-angle light carrier. Runs for an eternity on three AAA's. Got it at Home Depot for $20.
That's the one! I've got that same unit. Love it!
Ahh, was reminded today of my favorite tool: my little Milwaukee cordless screwdriver:
This little gem has survived 15 years of hard labour, and the 2.4V NiCad batteries are almost indestructible: the first one lasted 8 years before it wouldn't take a charge anymore; the second lasted another 3 beyond that.
It's served me originally for a year and a half doing car audio installs, keeping up with the other installers' 9.6V drills, then another 11 years in IT working on computer hardware, and is now going on two years doing its job in alarm and CCTV installs. This AIN'T your average cheap-ass Black & Decker PowerDriver!
Hrmmm... I suspect I'm not picturing this correctly, but it's very likely only because I've never seen it done before.
bdolph suggested the "creep-zit" push/pull rods, whose value I can imagine in what are probably mostly ideal conditions, but given that wiring holes in any of the framing in my house don't appear to have been drilled in any straight lines, I'm not sure how well they would work (for me) in practice.
These are definitely contributing to my confusion. I _know_ that the problem is that I'm not picturing this correctly, but I hope you can help clear it up for me. There's a 3/8" hole in the window frame? (perhaps you put it there, and I simply haven't understood that?)
You're pushing this tubing/glow-rod assembly (are the rods similar to the "creep-zit" rods pointed to by bdolph?) up an outside wall from the top (?) of a window frame into the attic? Are you perhaps dealing with buildings that don't have any insulation in the outside walls? (I just can't imagine this in my outside walls, without imagining damaging the insulation, but again, I wouldn't be surprised to be told that I'm suffering simply from lack of experience ...)
But there's a header (at least I believe that's what framing folks would call it) where the wall and ceiling/attic/roof framing meet, no? (perhaps you drilled another hole in this header, when I wasn't looking? ;-)
The value of this I can understand and appreciate. I've done enough wiring (professionally for audio and lighting system installations, and personally for telephone and computer networking, as well as AC wiring) to appreciate its value, but I clearly haven't done enough to understand how you're achieving it. Is the tubing the same as flexible electrical conduit?
Another aspect I can fully understand and appreciate. :-)
I basically stumbled upon the newsgroup while reviving a years-old search for information that would help me put into service an old alarm panel that I "decomissioned" for a friend. So far the group has been very helpful. The alarm panel is ready for installation, but I'm still planing where and how I will install sensors.
Thanks for the welcome ... (I've been lurking for a few weeks, actually)
I'm not worried at all. From what I've seen, polite conduct and an understanding that people are exchanging free advice and information (both from a point of view of "you get what you paid for", and from the point of view of "when seeking free advice, it's best not to make the advisor do more work than you've done yourself to try and find an answer") will go a long way in this group.
That said, when I worked in electronics (I was a service technician for an audio and lighting production company -- GAH! That was about
15 years ago!) I had a sign over my bench that listed hourly rates; a slightly higher rate if you wanted to wait for the work to be done; higher yet if you wanted to watch; and even higher if you had tried to fix it yourself first but couldn't.I understand the results of someone who knows only enough to be dangerous doing work themselves, which is why I'm reading this group and websites I've found from reading the group, as well as starting to ask questions which I hope will fill in the gaps in my knowledge.
For the most part, these gaps for me are in the physical installation work; My understanding of the electronics is fairly solid, and just about every form of employment I've had has exercised and developped my troubleshooting skills.
Oh please! Let's not start on Quebec politics! I'd prefer to remain on everyone's good side, and I don't imagine I could do that if I got into some political ranting! :-)
Thanks for the link. These look somewhat like thinner versions of the rods I use with my chimney brush. Is that a fair description?
What I'm not understanding from the photographs on the web page you linked to is how these rods are getting into the walls. Are they flexible enough to bend through (relatively) small holes in the drywall, yet stiffer than (for example) traditional fish tapes, making them easier to manipulate?
How does the "egg beater" head work, and where on such a rod is the cable attached while working?
There are two things I really don't like about any sort of wiring projects (and the alarm panel is only one currently planned for my house):
- working with fish tapes - working in the attic at any time of year
Anything that will reduce the amount of either that I have to deal with is of interest to me! :-)
Ok, it's starting to make sense, though I'll keep an eye for additional followups. Thanks for that.
Oh, well no problem then ... make a note, that if I kill myself by electrocution, the next hole will need to go in a different spot ... :-)
keep lots of silicone adhesive on hand in case I drill through the roof (which of course will happen right after I electrocute myself!) ... :-)
Do you guys really learn not to do _that_ by experience??? As in "by the time you drill through your third roof, you're never going to drill through another one" kind of experience?
Ok, I'm imagining that this (or the fiberglass fishtape; protection from electrocution?) is what's getting around the insulation in the wall, then, but ...
Tricks for finding the hole I just drilled? Would it work to leave the drill bit in place, and run the conduit up around the drill bit until I see it come out above the roof? (Ooops! I mean until it gets into the attic, of course!)
It's a traumatizing analogy, but I think I'm understanding. :-) thanks.
Hey at least you're open enough to come out of the closet. Me personally, I don't swing.
That's priceless. There was a dealer here in Baltimore who would wrap the alarm can in a green tarp, in hopes to camouflage the control panel. Man they were hard to find....
I guess they would be hard to find amongst all those other green tarps people keep hanging in their closets.
| > Major alarm co in my area...here's how they mount the panels...huge glob | of | > construction adhesive and one drywall screw to hold it from falling down | > while the glue dries. If you have to change the panel somewhere down the | > road half the wall comes off with the box. Same for lawn signs, which they | > mount on the side yard gate. Nice, huh. | >
| That's priceless. There was a dealer here in Baltimore who would wrap the | alarm can in a green tarp, in hopes to camouflage the control panel. Man | they were hard to find.... | |
Use a 3/8" by 24" bit to drill through the window frame straight through to the attic. Right through the window frame, header, and top plate. Be careful to measure so you don't go through the roof. In pockets of insulation, stop the drill's rotation and push the bit up like a spear. You get a feel for it after a while. The rods are just like the creep-zit rods, but they sell them separately as glow rods. The tubing can be purchased at industrial supply stores like Grainger or Johnstone Supply. I got lucky and found a supply of perfectly straight, pre-cut pieces at an electronic surplus store. If you still can't picture it, get on out to San Diego for a demonstration. (Bring your attic crawlin' clothes.) ;-) js
He could use wet suits here. Or just stick a surfboard in front of it. Cow-a-bunga, dood. js
First of all, you don't use a six foot drill bit unless you really have to. You use the shortest drill bit that will reach the attic. You should have at least a 2 foot, a 3 foot, and a 4 foot drill bit.. You should have several, because these drill bits do break.
Before you drill any holes, hold the drill bit up to the window or door you will be drilling. This will show you how far you need to drill, more or less. Normally, you will drill through some wood, then you will break into an open area that is filled with insulation. Stop the drill, or you will form a big wad of insulation on your drill bit. Push the bit until you hit wood, then continue drilling. Normally, you will feel the drill bit break through into the attic. Stop. If you continue drilling through wood past the point where you should be in the attic, be careful, or you may go through the roof. You should also be drilling at a slight angle towards the inside of the house, but be careful that you do not drill through the inside wall.
Once you have drilled a hole into the attic, remove the drill bit and use one of the glo-rods or fish wires or tubes to get into the attic. If you were able to put the drill bit through the wall and into the attic, you should be able to get these things through the wall as well.
Yes, it does take practice.
- badenov
Basement is almost the same process...easier if your basement doesn't have a finished ceiling. Except you wont have the problem of drilling out the roof...only smashing into the basement stem wall with your drill bit...and of course water pipes.
soifs up?...im outta heah.
I usually hide them behind clothes in the mbr closet...and where I can reach them without a 12 foot freekin' ladder. WHY do people put them almost on the ceiling in a residences? Drives us short installers nuts.
oh dear, what a way to go
Damaging the insulation with the drill is only a small part of that problem...you may never get the drill bit out of the wall is the other! :-)
I'll have to take a closer look at them.
I hated when my installers used that kinda screwdriver on panel screws!...I'd make them pay for the panel repair when they stripped out terminal screws.
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Thanks for the extra advice. I'm going to re-read this one (and some others) a few times, to be sure I fully understand what I'm doing before drilling any holes.
Incidentally, as I think about this, I'm not sure I need to drill into the attic at all: my house is a 3-bedroom bungalow with a full basement, and the alarm panel will be in the basement. If any part of this system will go up to the attic, it will be a second annunciator.
Would I be correct in believing that I can do all the wiring (minus any annunciator in the attic) from the basement?
Ok, I'm starting to get the picture. Thanks for your patience. In another message, I mention that I'm starting to believe that I don't need to work in the attic at all (though all of this advice will still be useful to me for other wiring projects which *do* involve crawling around in the attic). If you've read that message, are you able to confirm whether my belief is correct?
Right, as I realized from another message in this thread ... ("electrocute self first, drill through roof second ...")
Ok, that addresses my concern for damaging the insulation on the way up, then.
Right. Now at least I know what to look for. These would very likely be valuable to me for other projects as well, so I expect I'll try and pick up a set.
Funny you should mention that ... I might just take you up on it. There's a non-zero (though not otherwise significant) chance I may be going to a conference in San-Diego in December. It probably wouldn't be too terrible for me to take an extra few days for some hands-on alarm installation training. :-)
I'll let you know ahead of time, but I'm not holding my breath ...
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