why ground an alarm panel.

Many observe a tree damaged by lightning - then assume a lightning strike is some massive energy. IOW observations were not tempered with comprehension of underlying concept and the numbers. We all were taught how and why to do that in junior high school science.

Well over 95% of trees struck suffer no appreciable damage. When observers ignored that other 95+% data, then conclusions were only what they wanted; not conclusions based in reality. (BTW this is the same technical mistake that hyped child leukemia from power lines.)

Same misapplied reasoning is also found in comments such as:

First, all panels are grounded. Some simply are not grounding sufficiently - even for human safety. Why is a wooden tree a conductor of electricity? Tree branches are grounded. More 'resistive' grounding causes a higher energy dissipation on that panel - and in that tree. Therefore what would be nearly zero power discharge is now and significantly higher power discharge in a panel.

Did you see all panels that suffered no damage from direct transients? IOW were your observations complete? Or did you only observe panels that had damage - ignore those other panels that were better grounded and therefore had no damage? A classic example of observations using 'selective data sampling'. Panels that were sufficiently earthed also suffered from transients - yet had no damage. Not just grounded - earthed. Others that were not sufficiently earthed (and yet may have been grounded), instead, suffered damage. Only the last group appears in your observations - a violation of principles taught in junior high school science.

Yes improper grounding can contribute to damage which is why an installer need understand the 'whys' behind terms such as: 'single point earth ground, 'less than 10 feet', 'common service entrance', 'earthing wire separated from those wires', and 'no sharp bends, no splices, not inside conduit'.

One must demonstrated a comprehension of the difference between grounding and earthing; impedance and resistance; materials such a concrete and linoleum tile that are electrically conductive. Without such knowledge, then many make assumptions only on what was observed - making 180 degree erroneous declarations. It's equivalent to learning from the Daily News or Fox News; therefore knowing Saddam had WMDs. Those who read details - the underlying concepts - read what the advance physics labs were saying; came to a completely different conclusion. A famous expression: the devil is in the details. That means learning underlying concepts.

I see this often by those who did not comprehend or completely forget what was taught in elementary school about Ben Franklin's lightning rods and about how electricity works. They hype speculation that a lightning strike is a high energy event, that lightning crashes upon a panel like waves on a beach, and that grounding a panel causes panel damage. All three are myths.

Another example. What is legally required in grounding verses what is technically superior or recommended are two different things. This reply was false:

We still do not wire dwellings as if the transistor exists - even though wiring meets all code. How can this be if code legal requirements always result in technically superior earthing - as you have stated? Legal requirements for building wiring make no effort to protect transistors. Nor should it according to objective of those codes. Another underlying concept - the purpose of those codes.

Why code legal verses necessary grounding are not equivalent? Again, demonstrated by differences between low resistance and low impedance. One must first comprehend underlying concepts. Understanding those underlying concepts makes this statement obvious:

What RLB describes is how things were done decades before WWII where damage was not acceptable. Although we still don't wire new buildings as if the transistor exists, a solution is still easily adapted - in most locations.

Not ground> >> What is legally required verses what is technically superior

Reply to
w_tom
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putting that scenario into practice is not feasable in 99% of installations.

Hey Porkie, if I wanted to hear an asshole talk -- I'd fart.

As usual you missed my point. I said making a proper BONDED ground

10' from the panel as you described is simply not feasible. I don't plan my installations around a f****ng ground wire, therefore they don't get grounded if it can't be done correctly. Since you don't install sytems you really shouldn't give wothless advice out to those who do.
Reply to
G. Morgan

{ snipped mostly unread }

You and shit-for-brains can make a killing going into business together grounding panels. As far as I know, his felony record would not prohibit him from jamming copper rods in soil. Good luck with that.

Reply to
G. Morgan

Why ground a panel? Protect from surges of profanity? Profanity identifies a person who promotes myths he cannot defend. Personal insult to prove his superiority.

Provided by others are reas> > { snipped mostly unread }

Reply to
w_tom

What's your point? Ground your panel and get on with your life. I've grounded 5 panels in 22 years, all of which were hit by lightning. Now I'm living on the edge. Some of us are crazy that way. Move on....who cares.... At least you've discovered one of several uses for profanity...

Reply to
Jackcsg

I think you're mistaken.

At any gathering, when a bore just wont shut up, about somethng devoid of interest, the first step is to just ignore them.

Second step is to walk away ( not feasable in this venue)

Third step is to tell them to f*ck off.

Seems to me, due process has been accomplished.

Reply to
Jim

That don't work remember?

Reply to
Mark Leuck

Shhhhhh! Don't confuse him, he thinks he's...,well.....lucid. js

Reply to
alarman

This has been interesting. I'm visualizing a customer that calls a professional alarm installer, an alarm pro, not some person that doesn't know what they are doing. The customer says, "... And I also want a sensor on this interior closet door here, I really do." The alarm pro, knowing that all approaches to this door are covered, sees no logical reason for a sensor on that door and instead of just agreeing to install the magnet (oh wait, I can't resist, I should have said pushpin or magnet so that I could kick off that heated debate), wiring the zone, charging the customer, and getting on with life. The alarm pro decides to discuss this with the customer and debate the issue. The customer is polite but really does want it and just wishes that the professional they hired to do a job would just wire the door and get on with it. I'm curious, how many of you have cursed a customer to their face because they wanted an alarm feature that you just couldn't figure out their reason for wanting it? Thanks all, I am amazed at the direction this thread has taken.

Reply to
autonut843

First off, anyone who curses a customer to his face deserves whatever he gets !!

Secondly, I always approach a security situation on the basis of there being two levels of protection applying - "what the customer needs" based on my assessment of the physical situation and his expectations for the services being proposed, AND "what the customer wants" after discussions with the client. I will go so far as to politely tell the client that what he is proposing could be considered overkill given the situation,and tell him the reasons why. But when push comes to shove, the client is the one who makes the decision and the one who pays the bill. I can recommend, but he is the one who will be using the services. I do make it a practice to work from the bottom up price wise, not from the top down !!

However, if the client chooses far less than what he needs, I simply point out the security flaws in his approach and warn him. In some cases, I'll choose to pass the business by if what he proposes is too far out of line. There's lots of business around; why take on something you can't personally stand behind.....

RHC

I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?

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Reply to
R.H.Campbell

I was thinking more along the lines of someone that is getting a thorough and adequate installation, and wants just one more sensor and it doesn't make any sense to the installer.

An analogy might be if Bill Clinton had wanted magnets on the doors to the windowless hallway outside the oval office. Anybody knows that the secret service provides pretty good security around that house and a windowless hallway isn't that big a security threat. Bill has his reasons for wanting them, and he is probably not going to feel the need to explain himself. Would some of you argue with him and berate him or would you just install them and get on with life?

Pardon the political angle, I was just trying to think of a famous area that doesn't need a magnet switch on a door.

Reply to
autonut843

I think the same logic applies. Advise the client, but if he still wants it, and it doesn't actually do any harm, then the client is the one to make the final decision.

RHC

I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?

formatting link

Reply to
R.H.Campbell

That's easy....just do bid work.

Reply to
Jackcsg

If someone had alerted Hillary about Bill's security "concerns", she might have seen that he spent more time doing his job, and not diddling interns. js

Reply to
alarman

You remember it, you stupid f*ck.

You're the one who hypocritically says that everyone should ignore, but you can't seem to follow your own advice.

I didn't mention that when dealing with a stupid slug like you

don't waste any time ....... just go directly to the last step.

Fuck off!

Reply to
Jim

And you think that sucking someones c*ck is a great Christmas present.

Reply to
Jim

You still seem to be fixated on homosexual behavior. Why is that.....eh gramps? js

Reply to
alarman

As usual, those 'bored' with technical fact would also liberally use insults and profanity. Again demonstrates why grounding the panel, as defined in earlier posts, is actually important and why some deny this with more insults and profanity.

Lurkers are encouraged to learn why that ground> You remember it, you stupid f*ck.

Reply to
w_tom

Meeee?

You're the c*ck sucker!

Just because you're fat, prematurely old looking and bald, you don't have to go down on every guy you meet, just to make friends, ya know.

But, regardless , whether it's you giving blow jobs, of making snotty remarks, eventually you just may discover it's better if you keep your mouth shut.

Reply to
Jim

Haaaahahahahahaha, nope. Not in your lifetime, dad. You don't run anything here but your mouth. js

Reply to
alarman

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