If you have any idea what a low quality system it is, indeed you should expect negative responses.
In good conscience no one would either. Your system is junk. It doesn't work. I once replaced a Sonitrash system in CT after thieves broke in and stole only one thing... the Sonitrash control panel.
I don't work for ADT. However, there are two types of ADT. There are the so-called "authorized dealers" who sell cheap junk, slap the system in place in half a day and rush to the next vic... er, client. Then there is Corporate ADT which is the recognized industry leader -- head and shoulders above any of the "dealer program" idiots who have all but destroyed the industry.
Sonitrash is far worse than even the lowest of low "authorized dealers" though.
If you mean Bay Alarm, that's a poor example, too. Comparing Sonitrash to them is equivalent to com,paring a dead skunk to a dead squirrel. The one stinks a bit more but they're both useless.
Whereas you sell other crap. We once took over a gas station / convenience store in the South End of Hartford. They originally had Sonitrash. During a robbery the clerk pressed the holdup button. No one was dispatched. The Sonitrash operator didn't hear anyone shouting so she reset the alarm and did nothing. She heard nothing because the thieves had pulled the clerk into the back room and were raping her.
In another place Sonitrash didn't even get the holdup signal because they had left the circuit shunted during a service call after a prior false alarm. When the Sonitrash technician came out he told the customer that "the wire [which they had run along the floor] was squeezed by a box sitting on it so the electricity couldn't go through it."
I rarely poke fun at other people's spelling and grammatical errors but the above indicates an education level just under that of the MM.
Unfortunately, yours hass the highest rate of failure in the industry. Police joke about "impact noises" which is the standard explanation given by Sonitrash for tens of thousands of false alarm signals every year.
I am the owner of a rather large online alarm and home automation store. I have nearly 30 years' experience selling, installing and servicing alarm systems. As to why certain others may think I'm smart, that is all a matter of perspective. To a dwarf even a midget looks tall. :^)
The gentleman would have us believe that Sonitrash is using "new" technology? Heh. There junk has been around for decades. It was trash when they started and it remains so today. Well, at least they're consistent.
That is a flat out lie. In point of fact, Sonitrash is the laughingstock of the industry. Most police consider them the worst offender when it comes to false alarms. Unfortunately, they also miss a greater percentage of real emergencies than any other alarm company because their "technology" is so flawed. It also relies on a minimum-wage earning operator to make a judgment decision as to whether sounds coming from a microphone are being made by a thief, a squirrel in the attic, kids playing outside the premises or whatever.
Technically, bringing up Hitler or nazism in a thread is the Usenet equivalent of tilting a pin-ball game.
Your "guaranty" has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
I've heard the fabled Sonitrash sales claims before. They are total fiction. My favorite was the one the sales droids in Hartford, CT, used to repeat. They would tell prospective customers that "the Hartford police department caught 483 [number varied slightly from salesdroid to salesdroid] burglars last month. All but 5 were due to Sonitrash calls." Unfortunately, HPD never made 483 burglary arrests in any month in its history. The salesmen were trained to lie about everything right from the start.
Bullfrank! Your operators don't hear anything until the thief breaks a window or kicks in a door. At that point the system starts dialing the phone number of your central station. An alarm signal is sent in much the same manner as every other alarm system. Then and only then does your opperator begin to hear anything. By this time the ptrher alarm company operator would be making the notification call. Your operator would not. She sits there listening to a cheap speaker playing sounds picked up by a cheap microphone and tries to decide if this is the real thing or not. More often than not she gets it wrong, either dispatching on a non-emergency or (far worse) cancelling an actual emergency without calling anyone.
Okay I will. Step one. Get a big battery. Step two. Get a big loud horn. Step three. Get wire. Step four. Pick spot to burglarize with Sonitrol Listen-in System. Step five. Wire battery to horn. Place at front door of target. Step six. Toss rock through window. Step seven. Wait until cental station operator has time to hear and ignore signals. Step eight. Rape, pillage and plunder at will. Around here even the lamest burglar knows this trick, so do customers. So no one uses Sonitrol with that feature much, even Sonitrol. They've gone "conventional" for the most part. All the listen in type systems I see are either disconnected or abandon. If you use that stuff still and want to pay for it I'll post a message at the alarm parts house. I am sure you'd have plenty of used gear in short order.
Who is this guy, Will that everyone is always firing at?
I suspect that very few burglars even bother with that. The simplest way to defeat a Sonitrash system is to kick in the door and wait a couple of minutes. The operator will get the signal and then listen in for a few seconds. Hearing nothing she will then hit "reset" because she must handle an alarm from another premises.
After two minutes, go to step 8 above.
There's a simpler reason for that. They wanted to have UL certification for their business. UL would not accept their useless microphone system because UL's engineers determined it was, well... useless. The only way they could be accepted by the insurance industry standards writer was to use the same technology we all use -- the stuff this pyromaniac claims is old fashioned and ineffective.
I am trying to stay as professional as possible but you are an idiot.
I'm not sure where the little burb you work or exist in but your fact are incorrect. Robert, you seem to be somebody of knowledge in this little world on the internet but apparently you are just the leader in defending the only technology to are allowed or can afforded to sell. It is silly to dispute facts with you, and "I" can with documentation. Your cheap attacks on how you feel or what you think are embarrassing.
Ok, so lets play in the shallow end of your pool, because apparently you have no deep end.
Let's say that our minimum wage central station operators is making a judgment on what they hear... what is your minimum wage central station operators is making a judgment on? An indicator light that a door contact has opened or that a motion detector has gone off. Even you have to admit that motion detectors and door contact false...a lot!
I can tear apart your entire response because it is predicated on your opinion of your facts. Hey I have a couple of friends that work for ADT. Come on Robert... everybody messes with the fact and the stats on occasion. I'm sure if I asked you would give me your top success and brush the losses under the table.
Your "over the top" attack of Sonitrol is just a blatant attempt to try to level the playing field.
Ok.. so just for you let's play apple to apples as much as possible...
Central station operators.... Yours / ours - their not rocket scientists (although ours do get paid substantially more than minimum.) Wiring... we all do it, wire is wire Door contacts... a contact is a contact
Ok what left... Your PIR our Audio Sensor..
PIR's - They are non intelligent, they are triggered by various environmental changes, because of this they are know to go off "a lot". Most of the time when they go off they are not detecting what they were intended to detect..."the bad guy". So how does YOUR central station know if the activation is not a false one.. well from what I understand they are counting on the fact that if it is a "bad guy" then he is going to set off there stuff to ...right?... hopefully?? If only one goes of then if probably just a mistake.. right?? ..hopefully?? Oh yeah, assuming it really is a "bad guy" the PIR is not going off until AFTER they are already in the house or business. Remember our industry (because of PIR's has a known 90% false alarm rate. That means only 10% of the time are your door contacts and PIR's accurately detecting "the bad guy". From experience... and come on admit it, even central station operators get frustrated with the "more active accounts" and they "reset" sometimes more than they call the customer or the police. because they do not want to generate another false call to the Police.
Audio Sensors - They are activated by sound (I won't go through the whole explanation right now). And you are right that sound could be an animal, the mail man, an alarm clock going off, a bear sh*tting in the woods near by if he is loud enough. NOW HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE.... Our Central station operator can listen. they can hear the mail box, the bark and maybe even the fart from the bear. A lot of times we hear them out side the house / business as they are making their attempt to break in. Oh wait ...did I say "we hear them"?? Yeah... we hear them.. so we know if is an animal, the mail man, an alarm clock going off, a bear sh*tting in the woods near by if he is loud enough. If it is were confidently reset if it is not then we now have a "verified alarm" that the Police pay attention. The Police can actively use the information we hear (that they can actively hear) to better address the incident and use it to their advantage in the apprehension of the criminal.
Ok, so apples to apples everybody makes mistake and nobody is perfect. Sonitol's technology is and has proven to be better. Come on Robert, you know he burg system itself does not stop the break in. The burg system does not prevent the crime. All a burg system really does is prompt the central station operator to call the Police. The Police will respond faster and with more patrol cars to a verified alarm faster than a non verified alarm.
So you want to bitch and call Sonitrol Sonatrash all you want... go ahead... they same can be said about your system but you can not get past the technology issue. You can not do what Sonitrol does and that "little bit of difference JUST KILLS YOU.
Hey Roland... sorry to say but your an idiot as well see my response to your club house leader Robert...
Are your V.P. of the same club..
Best wishes... Oh just as some additional info. Most of our business encompasses $60K+ commercial installations not $3-5K home installs. So I guess I do not have to worry about the bad guys "big loud horn" assult.
Psst... hey here is the secret on how to defeat your system. Get in the house anyway that makes you happy... BUT try not to rip the place off for any longer that oh let's say 30-40 minutes. Because by then the Police are bound to do their due diligence and cruise by
Hey with all that time you can make yourself a sandwich as well. Please no mustard for me... thanks
Ok so now you have turn this into name calling... yippe!
Robert, Yawn... sorry about that. Your comments are your personal opinion from your 30 years of experience in your little burg. Where is that CT, yeah I used to get there to get grain alcohol and then come back to NY. Sorry about that CT.
Short and sweet your right about ADT but I was referring to Corporate. You know Robert, I guess if I was not so much of an MM I would take the time to tell all the "horror stories" about traditional system that I have encountered in my 10 years of experience (oh ..wait 30-10=20... darn you are smarter, you got 20 years more experience than me. I take it all back. Not a chance you could be so set in your ways and have a business too ingrained in an "old technology") or...
You just might be one of the bitter individuals that either could not afford a franchise or one was not available to you...Ok..I know... you would not sell "SonaTrach" if some one gave it to you...
Robert be happy where you are... I love CT in the Fall...it's just so pretty!!
I've known I've been an idiot for some time. It seems you are giving me a one up by actually practicing your idiocy.
Yes Robert and I have a special relationship. He gives a great foot massage. That's how we found each other at the club. We frequently visit the Castro district together when were not in Palm Springs. He and I have matching thongs we wear while strolling on the beach in Brazil together, just holding hands and snuggling.
Not an impressive number for a commercial installation if that was you goal.
I don't do many home installs, but I can tell you that was a price from many moons ago. With trunk slammer installations and ADT, Brinks, etc. selling below give away pricing, not many home systems go in at that price anymore. If you only do custom work, and not for giant home builders or someone else trying to beat you up on price, maybe.
If you would actually learn about your craft from all sources, and not just drink the Sonitrol Kool Aid, you might have a chance at getting your foot out of your mouth. The world usually discovers a better mouse trap and can distinguish that from better hype and BS over time. Save this thread. If you stay in the security business you may in the future find your comments quite humorous.
We reward police with doughnuts. They get there as fast as Homer Simpson. I am sure police response times vary. But 30-40 is very unusual here. 15 minutes is usually a max.
You may want to get some ear protection first. It is hard to think when you have a good loud siren screaming in your ears. Don't take my word for it. Check the FBI stats to see how many burglaries continue after a local alarm sounds. It is far more likely that the Sonitrol system leaves burglars to their work for too long a time at the owners expense. And speaking of FBI, why is it I see so many in class for that stuff you think is so worthless? Seems like them, and the DEA, and on and on would be switched over to Sonitrol by now. I guess they are idiots too and you'll have to enlighten them as well one day.
Hey Rob, I was initially impressed with what you said about yourself... really so I Google you. Now I'm sure you can find plenty of dirt on Sonitrol as well but as the they say..."people that live in glass houses should not throw stones"... Robert put down your rocks... (of course my apologies if this is the wrong Robert L. Bass.. But I'm pretty sure I'm dead on)
Wow 21 complaints in a small region like your... shame shame... Take care as always... Maybe I'll Google Ronald now..he he!
Robert L Bass - NOW 21 BBB COMPLAINTS STRONG Robert L Bass - NOW 21 BBB COMPLAINTS STRONG
UP FROM 20 TO 21 COMPLAINTS - CONSUMER BEWARE
The Online vender operating under the names shown below has an UNSATISFACTORY RECORD with the BBB with 21 complaints in the past 36 months,
11 were closed in the last year. You decide.
Bass Home Electronics
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See the BBB report on line before you purchase from this vendor.
There is a lot more to consider than just a low price when shopping on the internet. Don't become the next victim. SEE THE REPORT BELOW
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gotta go tho the link above... It just a killer!!!
Bad weather seems to neutralize Sonitrol's effectiveness, most of the burglars around here are aware of the weakness, so are some former Sonitrol customers.
I've set up commercial customers for Monitoring & Private response services at a lower rate than what Sonitrol charges to just monitor. Pyro, you may want to find another group to feed the ad campaign to, no body here is swallowing :-))
Just so you know, if you're going to try to convince anyone here that Sonitrol is a vialble type of system, you're pissing into the wind. In all the years I've been a participant in this group the only ones who speak in favor of this system are people like you, who come here trouting listen-in, as if it were the latest and greatest technology.
Like you, everyone who thinks this is a good system talks with the enthusiasm that seems like it was born of a sales pitch coming from a novice in the trade. You can't imagine how naive and silly you sound trying to push something as silly as this product using all the hpye and glitter that works on end users .....on people who have more experience than you and who've worked in this trade likely longer than you've been alive.
Listen-in has been around for a long, long time. If it truly had any value what-so-ever, you can be sure that every manufacturer would have jumped on the bandwagon a long time ago and certainly would have made a much bigger success out of it than Sonitrol has, in spite of all the years it's been able to fool people. Most manufacturers had their own version of listen-in and no one used it. It's a pain in the ass for the end user, the alarm installer and for the central stations ..... aside from it being too easy to sell against it, defeat it and all it's other obvious flaws. Sonitrol has perfected only one thing and that's how to sell franchises to gulible people for something that centers on a defunct technology.
Sorry, but you look all the fool trying to sell this, in such an amatureish manner, to people who have the understanding, technical know-how, experience, field background, and knowledge, of all the ways this kind of system falls short of your hype.
Proved by the fact that they've been able to hang on for so many years, the hype works on the end user, fer sure. But you're never gonna sell it here. Most installers catagorize it in the realm of the Loxon product. Not quite as bad, but in the same category.
If you don't keep trying to push this on people here, and just add your experience to the Newsgroup, you'll be OK. Keep pushing this, and you're just never gonna make it here. On the other hand, I don't think that that was your intention, in the first place. It was rather rude of you to make you're entry into a Newsgroup with an advertisement, to begin with. And further to that, who the hell did you think was going to buy something from Sonitrol, in a group of installers? That ..... was rather stupid. So right off the bat, you categorized yourself, and then followed it with an argument that you obviously can't win.
Some people just don't know how to act in public. I suggest that you just up and leave and don't come back. Otherwise you're going to get pretty frustrated here. But, you could stick around too. We could use some fresh meat.
It's Roland actually. Go ahead Google away. The only reference you'll find is under the perfect technician category; I am both fat and lazy. Bass operates in a completely different DIY market. So public exposure is something he is used to. He lists his full name, address, phone number etc. on his posts so he is no shrinking violet. If you think your little whack at him will phase him at all, then you might be disappointed. His health has given him some serious challenges and some folks here wish him a speedy journey not back to good health, but into the next life. Some have created entire web sites in his (dis)honor.
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It is something the likes you have probably never encountered before. I suspect Bass has some grown pretty thick bark on his trunk and can take what you throw with alacrity. Just be ready for what he throws back. If asked I would have suggested you read those posts before breaking the crust off of that bucket of crap. Bass is not necessarily the benign soul you regularly encounter. Bass might have his own minions sniffing up your skirt. From what I see he can kiss and tell, revealing some rather embarrassing details. If you have any dirty laundry now might be a good time to burn it, but it probably too late for that. I don't think you can un-swat the hornet's nest. Your only hope is that you're too much of a piss ant for Bass to worry with. Dragging Bass through the mud probably would have gotten Jim on your side, but being a shill for Sonitrol is apparently more than he can stomach, even if you are a confirmed Bass detractor. We might not know much about you now, but I suspect Bass might have some details to reveal that could portray you in a most unflattering light.
"pyro" wrote in message news:BCzph.13484$AM4.1507@trnddc07...
Thank you for the nice response. Actually I did not come to sell. I thought is was a discussion group. Apparently my mistake.
This group installs a traditional alarm system. I was just enjoying seeing especially Robert banter back and fourth. This is what I though new groups were about. I never went into the general public. I stayed on topic. Somebody pages ago picked a fight with me and pissed on Sonitrol.
There is a lot of business to be had. All the bad press you throw at Sonitrol can be found thrown at your system. Nothing is perfect. But quite frankly please do not spout off that Sonitrol sucks. Because if it does. It does not suck any worse than yours.
I work in Sarasota, Florida. I spent 24 years building and running a central station alarm company in Connectocit before moving south six years ago.
Awe, gee. You got me. My tiny, limited online store only sells 61,000 products from about 185 manufacturers. I've been for the day that Sonitrash allows online sales of their useless junk. :^)
No problem. You just make them up as in your previous posts.
We can't. We're replacing the roof so I have the solar heating system turned off. The water is much too cold. Check back with me in a few weeks after the new tile is installed and the heater reconnected. No, wait. That won't do either. I'll be in my second home in Brazil for a couple of months.
That's the key. Every other minimum wage central station operator only has to make phone calls to the police and the property owner. They don't wait a few minutes trying to guess what's going on. Sonitrash operators get it wrong most of the time.
Actually, there's a screen full of information. Real (non-Sonitrash) central stations got past simple indicator lights decades ago. If you worked for a real alarm company you might have known that.
Yep, but not nearly as often as non-discriminating audio threshold sensors and cheap microphones.
By all means continue. You're doing such a fine job. Why you're practically a legend in your own mind.
Me too. I never worked there though.
You guys don't. You just make up statistics on the spot. That's part of the reason Sonitrash is such a joke in the trade -- not to mention among police officers who consider them the worst false alarm offender ever -- bar none.
Uh-huh, sure. If you say so. Heh, heh, heh... :^)
Is this game played in the swimming pool?
Really? In that case I know an ex-ADT operator from Matawan who might like to apply for the job.
Did you learn all that in school?
I like a full perimeter system consisting of magnetic sensors (called "contacts") on every exterior door and every accessible window. I like to back that up with glass breakage detectors and dual-technology motion detectors.
I prefer dual tech detectors because most of the non-alarm stimuli that can set off a PIR don't affect a microwave detector. Likewise, most problen stimuli that can trouble a microwave detector don't affect a PIR. By combining both types of sensor within a single detector and using careful placement, a dual-tech detector can all but eliminate false alarms.
If the installation is properly done, about 99% (figure picked from thin air like a Sonitrash claim) of problems will be due to user error -- not the detector.
Hmm. I suspect you meant to say "other stuff" above. That's about the only way to make sense out of the above. If so, you're close. In many cases a real burglar will actually set off more thanb one detector. However, most real central stations don't wait for a second event before taking action. Doing so would delay response almost as long as Sonitrash does. Burglaries are usually over in a matter of minutes. It is imperitive that the authorities be notified promptly -- not after some operator wastes precious time waiting to hear someone say, "C'mon, Mugsy. Let's grab da jewelry and get outta hear."
Nope. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that motion detectors should be used as a backup to full perimeter protection, like a second line of defense.
Actually, it's more like 98% and the absolute worst offender in causing this is Sonitrash.
I admit that Sonitrash operators have been known to do that. It's a shame that Soni-sales droids never tell prospective customers about that. Our central station, like every other *real* central station, kept a log of every event. Out securoity systems also kept a log of events. If an operator were to take a Soni-nap like that it would easily be found out, resulting in termination.
Oh, please do.
That is the problem with non-discriminating audio sensors. Any sound above an arbitrarrily set threshold will set them off. It is one of the reasons that Sonitrash is responsible for a far greater proportion of false dispatches than their share of actual installations.
Yeah, sure. One client told me that a Soni-idiot had said that they can hear a person in stocking feet walking on a carpet in an adjoining room. I wonder if these morons attended the Olson School of Marketing.
Some poor Soni-victim had one of these audio systems in a commercial structure in Hartford many years ago. The neighborhood teens used to have fun tripping the system by hitting their car horns in the adjoining property's parking lot. The system would go off several times a night. After a while Sonitrash just ignored it completely. After thieves cleaned them out without Sonitrash responding one night, the owner took bids on a replacement system. I sold him a full perimeter system. The false alarms ended.
The following was documented by the local police department and is a matter of public record. If you want to dig a bit you can verify it.
Another ex-Sonitrash client was a 140,000 sf Goodyear warehouse and office complex in S Windsor, CT. The first break-in lasted over half an hour according to police. The thieves removed almost every piece of computer equipment, printers, fax machines, etc., from each office.
A few weeks later there was a second break-in. This was the time when the only thing taken was the Sonitrash alarm control panel. I never figured out why they bothered.
Sonitrash came out to service the alarm and while they were there noticed that there were problems with the fire alarm system. To their credit they attempted to fix it. To their discredit they disconnected the horns and bypassed the "trouble" sounder, then forgot to correct it. A few days later someone (accidentally or deliberately) unscrewed a fire suppression hose until it was just barely staying on the pipe, then opened the valve. With the tightly folded hose in place the water only trickled for a while. There wasn't enough flow to set off the waterflow sensor. After a while the hose slipped off, releasing a powerful stream of water.
This was a Friday night. Sonitrash's operator got the signal when the fire alarm went off. Being a highly trained Soni-clerk, she listened for the tell-tale sound of the fire horns. Hearing nothing she hit the reset and went back to sleep (only kidding) or whatever. No one was notified until a police officer making his rounds happened to hear the water motor gong on Monday morning. By then the place was a swimming pool. All of the loading bay doors were bowed out under the weight of the water.
The loss was in the thousands. It would have been worse except none of the computer equipment had been replaced yet.
The company took bids on a replacement system. I installed a full perimiter system with long range photo beams and motion detectors as a backup. We protected them for years.
Yes, that is what you said. Clearly you don't always hear them though.
What is this preoccupation you have with bear droppings? It sounds a lot more like bull droppings.
Yours was coming into this newsgroup and spouting a lot of nonsense about your ridiculously incompetent system and its imaginary capabilities.
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