Problem With ADT System - Need Advice

What "ditch" are you referring to?? Or are you guys really contemplating building a moat?

They were originally sold under the DS brand, but they are not the "old" version. We have them in some hostile environments and they work better than most other units we've tried. For really nasty spots it is hard to beat the OD850.

As you know, I've been a big fan of Paradox equipment from day one, and use the 1759MG with the 1641 high end LCD keypad as my "standard" installation. By and large, my feelings still stand, although lately I have become a little disillusioned with their wireless products.

They enroll easily, and are very reliable, but when batteries inevitably go bad, there are problems. If the batteries in a wireless motion go low, besides sending to the station, the LED will blink to indicate which one needs the batteries changed. However, with the smaller door contact, you have no such indicator. The event log will show you (sort of) which device is low, but the only way to be sure is to change all the wireless contact batteries (DL 2450 lithium at $3 a pop). When I took this complaint to their tech support (superb by the way), I was told there was no room in the chip for that indication - it was full !! Also, you may have to power the panel down and up again in order to clear the "RF trouble". But they are still far superior to DSC's wireless product line (IMO)

I don't use the all-in-one Magellan because of the inherent flaw with the dialer integral with the keypad. Also, again in my opinion, these all in one devices are designed to fit a niche, but are not suitable for whole house security - especially when hardwired panels are so good and so inexpensive. I have come upon houses that are TOTALLY drywalled, and where this type of panel is pretty much the only kind it is possible to install, but I always pass on that business. If I was going to do them, I would use the GE model, with the dialer separate and in the basement. I'm getting pretty fussy these days on the jobs I take. At this point in my business, I'm virtually working for Revenue Canada anyway, so screw it !! RMR is huge now with over 1000 accounts, and it's hard to have enough write offs at year end to bring the taxable income down to manageable levels.

The only other minor problem I've had is with one or two DG75's going bad and causing false alarms that cost me money. But that's to be expected with literally 1000's in service I guess.

Paradox will likely never be big in the US because of entrenched bias towards US companies. However, they are huge world wide in over 41 other countries spread all over the globe. Such is life !!

Cheers !

R=2EH.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, > > I guess Paradox is big up there north

the DG75) myself. They work reliably and they're

ple pets) I like the Visonic K-980D. I have not used their

s of the US. One of my clients in Rhode Island has bought

em to his own customers. He's just getting his feet wet in

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While I was installing I rarely used wireless. Most homes where we worked (southern New England) can be wired by a skilled technician or DIYer with little or no visible sign that anything has been done. Florida is another situation altogether with shallow roofs and cement block walls over slab foundations. For existing structures here wireless is the mainstay.

With most installations using from 0 to 5 transmitters (mainly zero), we just made it a policy to replace all batteries whenever the first one went low. The client spends more on batteries but saves a good deal on service visits. With DIYers it's different. I just sell them a new battery whenever one fails.

That's ot surprising, Bob. The chip contains the firmware and often the address. Most alarm manufacturers use the smallest chips available in order to keep costs down. If a transmitter costs you $30 after distributor profit, shipping (twice) and advertising, the manufacturer needs to be able to produce it for about $5 or less. By comparison, a $350 (dealer cost) FACP has a typical manufacturing cost target of arond $90-100.

That's a pian and should be addressed.

That isn't saying much. :^)

The primary use of the Magellan is for apartments where virtually no wiring is permitted. Also, some clients rent or own a residence only temporarily and expect to move within a short time. For them an all-in-one is sometimes a reasonable compromise between the expense of professional installation, removal and reinstallation or no system at all.

Absolutely agreed. For long term protection of any substantial structure, wether the installation is by paid professional or DIY, a wired solution is usually preferable.

I've sold thousands of those as well and to dat have had almost no problems. Considering the vast majority were DIY installed, I'd say they're a very reliable detector. Were you able to isolate what had failed on the two bad units?

The funny thing about that is most "US brand" alarm systems aren't made in the USA at all. With the Bush administration offering tax breaks and other encouragement to companies that outsource to China and India, it's going to take years to correct that problem (not to mention the destrucvtion of our economy and the horrible toll of hman suffering among our soldiers who were sent to war on a pack of lies).

Clients who do use them (Paradox) tend to come back for more. I suspect that over time they'll snare a bit more of the US market. If DSC's service and QC go any firther down the tubes Paradox may take the lead from them.

(southern New England) can be wired by a skilled

done. Florida is another situation altogether with

structures here wireless is the mainstay.

RHC: I only use wireless whenever a wired device is impossible to install, or external wiring can't be hidden satisfactorily. The longer time it takes to do it hardwired up front usually saves you on later service costs, as well as being far more reliable overall for the customer. When I quote using wireless, I always tell the client we will move mountains to get a wire to the spot, but if we can't, he's already primed for the extra cost. If we can do it wirelessly, then his bill goes down, and I've never had a customer complain about that...:))

just made it a policy to replace all batteries whenever the

on service visits. With DIYers it's different. I

RHC: Yes, their tech support tells me this will be addressed in the next version of the Spectra panels coming out. Pretty annoying really. How the hell would a DIY ever know to do that when even I had to get that information from tech support

permitted. Also, some clients rent or own a

an all-in-one is sometimes a reasonable compromise

or no system at all.

RHC: Agreed, but I see a lot of them shoehorned into larger homes where they have no business being installed. But still far better than the unsupervised garbage wireless that companies like Alarmforce put in. (Gawd, I don't know how they sleep at night !! What amazes me is that their customers rave about them. Clearly someone is getting sold a real bill of goods here, or the customers in question are totally uneducated on proper security equipment, but that's another thread I guess...)

Considering the vast majority were DIY installed, I'd

failed on the two bad units?

RHC: Yes, in both cases, the on board relay failed. I suspect it was fused open by a voltage surge that probably came from a lot of the severe thunderstorms we had this summer. They caused a lot of damage. I had to replace 8 panels this summer due to damage to the dialers caused by high voltage surges. Some of them had door contacts welded shut as well....a real mess ! Paradox imply that their panel is more immune to damage from high voltage surges, but my experience shows no difference from DSC panels.

over time they'll snare a bit more of the US market.

lead from them.

RHC: Well, my stats seem to indicate that they are more trouble free overall than the DSC panels I have in service...about 600 Paradox versus about 400 DSC. But they are both good panel lines and seem to address all the applications that I need in the high end residential marketplace. It's just that they each have different weaknesses. Now that ADT calls the shots at DSC, I don't know what that will do over the long term....no good I suspect !

But...hey...what do I know. I'm just a little guy, and everyone on the newsgroup tells me I'm running my business all wrong....hehehe...

RHC

RHC

They enroll easily, and are very reliable, but when batteries inevitably go bad, there are problems. If the batteries in a wireless motion go low, besides sending to the station, the LED will blink to indicate which one needs the batteries changed. However, with the smaller door contact, you have no such indicator. The event log will show you (sort of) which device is low, but the only way to be sure is to change all the wireless contact batteries (DL 2450 lithium at $3 a pop). When I took this complaint to their tech support (superb by the way), I was told there was no room in the chip for that indication - it was full !! Also, you may have to power the panel down and up again in order to clear the "RF trouble". But they are still far superior to DSC's wireless product line (IMO)

I don't use the all-in-one Magellan because of the inherent flaw with the dialer integral with the keypad. Also, again in my opinion, these all in one devices are designed to fit a niche, but are not suitable for whole house security - especially when hardwired panels are so good and so inexpensive. I have come upon houses that are TOTALLY drywalled, and where this type of panel is pretty much the only kind it is possible to install, but I always pass on that business. If I was going to do them, I would use the GE model, with the dialer separate and in the basement. I'm getting pretty fussy these days on the jobs I take. At this point in my business, I'm virtually working for Revenue Canada anyway, so screw it !! RMR is huge now with over 1000 accounts, and it's hard to have enough write offs at year end to bring the taxable income down to manageable levels.

The only other minor problem I've had is with one or two DG75's going bad and causing false alarms that cost me money. But that's to be expected with literally 1000's in service I guess.

Paradox will likely never be big in the US because of entrenched bias towards US companies. However, they are huge world wide in over 41 other countries spread all over the globe. Such is life !!

Cheers !

R.H.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, > > I guess Paradox is big up there north

Bosch (Radi>> > As you know, I've been a big fan

Been there. Done that. Seen the movie. Have the poster. "Wrong border."

(southern New England) can be wired by a skilled

done. Florida is another situation altogether with

structures here wireless is the mainstay.

Then you're not as "creative" as I thought. Or should I say, your "creativity" is limited to installation fairy tales, innuendo, and outright lies...

made it a policy to replace all batteries whenever the

So you "charged" your customers for batteries you never replaced. Hmmmmm....

Check. I'll make sure to ignore this practice as it no doubt serves to generate an inordinate number of "false" BBB complaints...

And with "zero" transmitters, how do you explain the need for the battery? "Just buy it anyway, Mr. Smith. It'll keep your account active."

It's certainly "ot surprising" to me....

manufacturers use the smallest chips

distributor profit, shipping (twice) and advertising,

comparison, a $350 (dealer cost) FACP has a typical

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

You're a "pian", Bass. But are you really wearing "a dress"?

Hmmm... Yet it's "the panel of choice at BassBurglarAlms"...

Uh-huh... and "to date" you've had more than "40 problems" although some have "scrolled off" because the BBB only keeps records for the preceding three (3) years...

DSC=Canada Bosch= German Samsung=Korean Geovision=Taiwan Genetec=Canada Hochiki=Japan GE, Honeywell=International DMP=USA And just who uses that product that posts here? I bet DMP wouldn't say that there is an "entrenched bias towards US companies", and their market share proves it.

They enroll easily, and are very reliable, but when batteries inevitably go bad, there are problems. If the batteries in a wireless motion go low, besides sending to the station, the LED will blink to indicate which one needs the batteries changed. However, with the smaller door contact, you have no such indicator. The event log will show you (sort of) which device is low, but the only way to be sure is to change all the wireless contact batteries (DL 2450 lithium at $3 a pop). When I took this complaint to their tech support (superb by the way), I was told there was no room in the chip for that indication - it was full !! Also, you may have to power the panel down and up again in order to clear the "RF trouble". But they are still far superior to DSC's wireless product line (IMO)

I don't use the all-in-one Magellan because of the inherent flaw with the dialer integral with the keypad. Also, again in my opinion, these all in one devices are designed to fit a niche, but are not suitable for whole house security - especially when hardwired panels are so good and so inexpensive. I have come upon houses that are TOTALLY drywalled, and where this type of panel is pretty much the only kind it is possible to install, but I always pass on that business. If I was going to do them, I would use the GE model, with the dialer separate and in the basement. I'm getting pretty fussy these days on the jobs I take. At this point in my business, I'm virtually working for Revenue Canada anyway, so screw it !! RMR is huge now with over 1000 accounts, and it's hard to have enough write offs at year end to bring the taxable income down to manageable levels.

The only other minor problem I've had is with one or two DG75's going bad and causing false alarms that cost me money. But that's to be expected with literally 1000's in service I guess.

Paradox will likely never be big in the US because of entrenched bias towards US companies. However, they are huge world wide in over 41 other countries spread all over the globe. Such is life !!

Cheers !

R.H.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, > > I guess Paradox is big up there north

You may well have a point; however, I was referring more to Ademco, Napco, Caddyx and other more commonly known alarm products which, regardless of where they may be mass produced, are still regarded as US based panels.

RHC

Oops...I guess I should explain what I meant by "entrenched".

I wasn't refering to where a particular product was manufactureed. I was referring to the habit of most alarm companies to start with a particular product line and stay loyal to it for the main part of their business where they actually install panels. Unless they have a bad time of it with a manufacturer (as happened with the very earliest version Paradox Esprit panels - under version 2.0), usually they seem to stay with what they started with. In that sense, their loyalties are "entrenched", and it would be difficult to sell them a new line of panels, since this would involve a rather major shift in business direction.

For example, in my area of North America, both Napco and Caddyx have a very difficult time of it. Only one dealer I know uses Caddyx, and he sells it primarily because it would be very difficult for any other local dealer to "take it over". The only dealer that handles Napco, gets lots of referrals from the rest of the local dealers because no one wants to bother taking on an odd ball panel. DSC and Paradox are in that sense "entrenched" in our local market, and Caddyx and Napco blocked out. I suspect that Paradox have the same problem selling to established alarm dealers in the States.

RHC

tourman wrote:

Also Visonic = Israel

There is no US bias, it's just a matter of distribution which Honeywell and GE have and Paradox does not (in the US).

Thats about the dumbest thing I've read in ages

Agreed. Most dealers will stick with whatever they start with. The funny part is how some of these guys trash a competing product which they've never used, even when the competing product is better than what they currently sell. Some died-in-the-wool GE Security / Caddx users swear there's nothing better and swear even louder at Napco even though Napco makes a better, more flexible panel with features unavailable from GE. Likewise, Ademco die-hards insist their products are great and everything else is junk -- this in spite of the known fact that Loxxon is the greatest... errrm, never mind. :^)

Gotta be because of that Canadian "Bias" :)

BTW its spelled "Caddx"

Only one dealer I know uses Caddyx, and he

I've seen a lot of people switch from DSC to Caddx a few years ago and unlike any other brand it's almost a cult following for Caddx, I have no idea why

You had to say it. Now Petem is going to want to come and post something to blame it, bash it, or kill it. Okay, now that you stirred him up throw Nice=Israel in there too.