ASA re-visited

Snip of VERY long post!!! LOL

This is a post for Jim and Sylvain

Sylvain, Jim here is acting like he is cause of Bass... Even me ,got so mad at the Basstard... ;-) that I started to do exactly as Jim and disrupted every damn thread Bass was posting in..

I stopped posting ideas and opinion on almost every thing related to alarm/access and cctv cause "he" was using this kind of info to make a profit with is online store...

Jim is not the source of the trouble,he's a kind of back fire coming back at Bass...

Jim, I am with you on this..Now let just hope the Fat B wont come back.. (maybe he got to the club I gave him the phone number in Sarasota and found too much trouble there! lol)

Yeh ..... I KNOW! I tried three times to post it and it just wouldn't go through. I had to re-compose it the second time but I saved it in my word processor. I guess so many words couldn't squeeze through the internet. Could be it got stopped by the Pepto Bismal virus. It stops diarrhea.

Thanks for the support.

If he'd have got the kind of "club" that he deserves ....... he'd have lots of lumps. ;-)

Ya know, wouldn't it be ironic if someone from Usenet, that he's insulted, went down to Sarasota and gave him what he's always dared people to do? And now he's in a hospital in a full body cast, except for his nose, suspended over a bed ....... uhhhh or two ..... I'd LMAO!

No, I can't claim to have gone anywhere near that far back. :-( (I do try to have some semblance of a life, though it doesn't always show!)

I'm nowhere near arguing that it isn't wrong. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to convince anyone that he _should_ do what he's been doing; what I'm trying to convince you of is that your vocal (well, typed) opposition to it does more harm (in general) than good.

Oh, I _believe_ you, don't doubt that; I'm just trying to be one of the voices that says "let it go ... people will see him for what he is without any help".

Well, my offer was to "write more words" if there wasn't already any document outlining a consensus of how participants in the group should behave. Frank pointed to some documents that in my opinion do represent such consensus, so my current offer is to group the relevant sections of those into a single document that, once agreed on by regular participants in the group could be automatically posted on a regular basis. I no longer believe that a "new" document would be necessary, but rather that a summary of existing documentation would suffice.

It's in the group's proposal (I believe), though it doesn't name anyone specific.

Not directly, but I assure you that I would have no hesitation to translate some of the information I've received from some of the regulars here into hired services if I were looking for such. I've gotten an impression that the group is generally populated with folks who have a professional attitude and take pride in a job well done, and who perhaps occasionally need to let off steam about clients or installations that were clearly done by less experienced personnel. That means they're human too. :-)

Credibility: whether or not I can associate your messages with someone who has credibility and whose opinions I can count on. ("I" in this sentence referring to any reader, including but not limitted to, myself).

That's true, I hadn't spotted that.

That would be enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth ... I think I'd counter with placing a copy of the same post, with complete headers on my own web site, and make sure that the bigger search engines take note of it. That way, at least, readers would have some opportunity to locate the original message with its attribution. :-)

Well, I have to admit, in the time that I've been reading the group directly (not via archives), it has been primarily diamonds. It wasn't until this thread started that I started to have the idea that perhaps there was a history that I had yet to discover. (note that I discovered the group via archives, and added it to the news server I manage a couple of weeks before starting to post in it ... that's all very recent.)

That's true, but please understand that I'm not trying to control you or the group. I'm simply trying to propose an alternate to the behaviour that has been seen in the past. People can just as easily tell me to go to hell and leave them alone in their merry chaos, of course. I would have dropped the idea immediately if I'd gotten the sense that the chaos was "comfortable".

True. Then again, protest can also be more subtle. A sharp blade will cut much more deeply and more cleanly than a blunt one.

I wouldn't claim to expect that _no_ chaos would ensue. I do think that a dull roar is likely unavoidable in most newsgroups. ;-)

On the other hand, you and I have been having this discussion, disagreement even, with messages that have caused others to comment more about the length than about the content, yet we've managed to remain completely civil to each other, without once resorting to personal attacks against each other.

Then again, neither one of us has displayed the sort of behaviour that the other is trying to argue against. :-)

I certainly have to agree with you on that. not a coincidence ... However, I haven't been trying to say that you don't have a point (I did state that if you were one who felt "stepped on", that your points cannot be seen as unbiased, but not that they weren't valid, or unclear.) The fact that others (including, presumably, some who have had no reason to feel personally slighted) feel the same does remove some of that bias.

Exactly.

You may be (perhaps even probably are) right. On the other hand, such a document would clearly demonstrate what sort of behaviour is intended to be found in the newsgroup. People coming for advice (or trying to find goods or services to purchase) would be able to see very quickly if someone is stepping beyond those boundaries and exploiting the existence of the group for personal gain. They would then be able to proceed according to their own morals.

The only response I would like to make to that is that I wouldn't want it to be "my" charter. I'm willing to put in the time to compile it from the existing documentation, discuss it here with others, and more importantly (in my opinion) to setup an automatic frequent posting of it, but there's no way it would have any meaning in this newsgroup unless it were a document agreed upon by those people for whom this group exists (and I'm not really one of those, except insofar as I'm able to ask questions and get useful answers from others who participate in the newsgroup).

Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

That's why I refer to this as a hobby.

Well, I can counter that with the fact that if someone here HADn't been vociferous about it, you would not be aware of what he was doing to the

group. If no one said anything to him. If everyone ignored what he does to people and how he besmirches the industry ...What his reputation was .... You'd probably have obtained your information and be long gone by now. You may have even purchased product from him and have been totally unaware of the means by which he'd obtained your business.

I don't see how NOT bringing his conduct into the forefront, by objecting to it, to people that come here, is going to discourage him from being

the nasty rat that he purposely is to the regular participants. I see it that his goal is to sell to people regardless of what he has to do to others and the reputation of the installation trade. Curtailing his ability to sell will certainly not be encouragement for him to continue, except for shear stoubborness to not be (in HIS terms) bullied into doing something that he doesn't have to do. In this type of fourm, he's right, you can't "force"anyone to do anything. But you sure don't have to remain silent in the presence of absolute arrogance and disregard for the majority of the people that regularly participate in this Newsgroup. For the very same reason that "nothing" can be done to stop someone from being a nasty misfit, it has to be countered with somthing that is equally unsavory or it will simply continue. In real life people can walk away and find another group. But there's no way that I'm going to "walk away" and let this misfit dictate how and where and what I do. Steve Rykman, let Bass dictate what he wanted to do, by walking away from this group. All this time, it's now obvious, Steve's been lurking in the background self shackeled into not participating in this group, simply because he chose to "ignore" Bass. That was his decision but it's not EVER going to be mine. I think that it is BECAUSE of pacifisim such as this, that people like Bass think that they can bully people into backing down even though they know what they're doing is wrong. As soon as you let your fear of consequenses override your sense of what is right, you've allowed something that is to wrong dictate what you do. Your freedom to fuction as you choose, is taken down another notch. And doing things wrong becomes a little more acceptable. You HAVE to stand up and speak up for what is right or you relagate yourself to servility.

I anxiously await that happening..

I doesn't say what should be done if ignoring doesn't stop the intrusion.

On occasion, but very VERY rarely, does someone here have business dealings with people who come here. Possibly it occurs out side of the group, but if so, it isn't that apparent. Sometimes people are directed to participants that are known to provide a service they're looking for, but once that occurs, no one knows what transpires. By the way, that's exactly what would happen with Bass also, if he wasn't so hell bent on destroying people and reputations himself. HE knows this and has been told this many, many times. But he just wont stop with the jabs,' and other unsavory conduct.

I think that you might be wrong in my experience. When someone comes here, it usually doens't make any differece WHO gives them the information they're looking for, as long as they get it. They see the turmoil, usually don't take sides, because they don't know who is the villan and who isn't. All they know is that they need info or direction and will take it from wherever it comes. It's when they're looking for someone to buy from that their doubt as to whether the accusations about Bass's

conduct are really true or not. I'd hope that without knowing what's true and what's not, that they'd go to another web site, and I've gotten occasional E-mail feedback, that they do. Obviously, some don't and I've gotten feedback on that also. So I know that SOME of what I'm doing is having SOME affect on his business. That's good enough for me. But it DOES assure me that total outward rejection by the participants of the group

would be even more effective. Saying nothing at all about his nefarious and sinister conduct that has perhaps taken place weeks before a newcomer comes here, will not be seen by them and Bass will achieve his goal of

using this group for his own profit. You can bet that a 1000 word "charter" is not going to be read by every newcomer either. And even if it is, without pointing out that Bass is breaching it, it will serve no purpose. So, again outward objection to what he is doing, is necessary.

Uhhhh your memory is VERY short. I don't have anything to sell here. Therefore, I don't have a website. If I did, and pointed to it from here, my identity would be apparent.

Again, another point in favor of outward objection to what he's done to this group.

All I can say is ....... that if you'd come here during a time that Bass was participating and you started this kind of subject I would be right there bashing you out of the group with every bit of opposition that I could marshal.

A heavy blade need not be sharp.

With full cooperation from the majority of the regular participants it would be the more desireable road to take. I'm waiting to see if the regular,

non-activists will adjust their views in light of the fact that this has gone on so long, doing what has been being done, up to this point.

What you haven't noticed is that the people who I beleive foster Bass's continuation of his behavior, have had very little or nothing to say in this thread.

I'd have to say that most/all of the people that have been viciously attacked by Bass are no longer here or only drop in occasionally ....... anymore. Being fair about it ...... all but a few of those that I've had altercations with over this situation, are mostly gone also.

See my above response to this.

Then lets' get it on!

I'm doubful, but cooperative at this point. Let's see what happens.

That's the first approach. When that doesn't work, after a great number of times over a long period of time, then only a reply that is stronger, than that which you are objecting to, will suffice. You may disagree, but you know what the rule is. ...... This is an alt group ........... etc.

I have no reason to have a web site. I install alarm systems and other low voltage wiring. I have an unlisted telephone number. After 35 years, I have enough clients and referrals to keep me busy for years.

You've never met a man you didn't like ...... more than Robert Bass.

Sorry don't mean to make it appear that way. In this case however, it's not lack of observation skills. It's lack of familiarity. You don't know who's who. I know that some who are not responding are in accord so far. I know that there are others who are not. I know that there are some that just don't care. You don't know which is which. I do. It's quite possible that the number of those who would actively participate could be out numberd by those that just don't care. Then again, I have a strong feeling that it's just not going to matter in the long run, because even if more agree to participate than who descent, this isn't a majority rule fourm. And I have to say for myself, even if everyone agrees and we try it, and Bass returns and ignores it and it goes on too long, eventually I'll not hesitate to take him on again, full bells and whistles. If he or anyone blatantly and purposefully breaks the rules of engagement with other human beings in a group enviornment, with contempt and arrogance, (as only Bass can do), it WILL revert to chaos again.

Thanks. I truly hope it isn't a work in futility.

And don't forget that Steve Ryckman made an offer to assist.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, in principle, yet I still feel that what you're saying does not necessitate personal attacks in any way. One can object to another's conduct without resorting to objectionable conduct themselves.

I'll try to make time to work on it this weekend.

(group proposal ...)

True. My interpretation is that it specifies that the only thing expected to be done is to ignore such posts, and to continue ignoring them. I can't imagine that anyone would find it contrary to the spirit of the proposal if folks were to point out to newcomers that they should tread carefully when entering with dealings with this individual, based on his conduct in the newsgroup.

That will depend on the newcomer, I agree. On the other hand, I'm also not expecting to create a 1000 word document either. A charter need not (and in fact in most cases shouldn't) be a long document. It should be clear and concise, and I hope to propose one that people will agree is.

Again, my point is not so much with the message, as it is with the way that message might be delivered.

Not that short. I have nothing to sell either, yet I have a web page, and I can think of ways in which I could have designed web pages so that my own name is not closely associated either with the page or with the domain name where it's hosted.

I might (probably would) have been less inclined to make the proposal in the heat of the moment. Generally, I do believe that people reap what they sew, when it comes to newsgroup participation, but I also believe that there are ways to get a point across about someone else's objectionable behaviour without resorting to similarly objectionable behaviour.

:-)

Why do you keep concluding that I lack basic observation skills? I have noticed that you and I are the only ones who have pursued this discussion so far, yes.

Alright. As I stated above, I'll try and make time to work on this over the weekend.

Actually we're all just waiting for the usual shoe to drop.

All but a few prefer the calm. What you see is typical.

Theres an old saying that somewhat applies here.

"All our friends bring happiness, some by coming, others by leaving. "

We've been in the second stage for a number of weeks now.

The post was in this thread as follows:

Newsgroups: alt.security.alarms From: Steve Ryckman - F>The Groups "Original Purpose Message" and a brief history is here:

Those look reasonably close to what I remember (it's been a long time).

I have the originals as well as the content of the original ASA website

at home still. Heck, I still have the messages when the AlarmSystems group was formed on RelayNet back in the 80's.

As an unmoderated group understand that you have no recourse against anyone who doesn't follow the rules or charter. The rules and charters

are only for those that want to "play nice". Generally only those asking for help will follow the rules, those who are using it for personal means will do what they want and say to he\\\\ with the rules.

Going to a moderated group would be the only way to really control the group Sad but true.

With that said, if a bunch of you decide to move forward with this, if I can provide web hosting or other support for the effort, let me know.

-- Steven M. Ryckman VP Technical Services

Security Information & Management Systems, Inc. dba SIMS, Inc.

I wrote (re. compiling sections of existing documents into a frequent posting to act as a charter for the group):

That didn't happen, I'm afraid. I've had a household emergency take over most of my time for the next few days (water heater busted).

On the other hand, I see that some regulars that had been "missing" for a while seem to have returned (it looks as though several reappeared at around the same time), and that there appears to be a desire for "self moderation" (even if in one case that's likely to be a "warts and all" type of image).

Perhaps (laziness always prevails!) I should instead step right back on this and just let nature take its course. My impression is that folks are tending to prefer the unchaotic nature that the group has enjoyed for the past few weeks anyway. I doubt anyone needs *my* help for that. :-)

Jim wrote:

Hrmmm ... I don't think my news server received that message. If you have the message-id handly, I wouldn't mind looking for it on an archive and seeing his offer.

Thanks.

why i would never hire a US alarm company ... well the replies to this tread sais it all ... ha ha ha ha hah .. come on, you guys make us loosers look good :-)))))))))))))))