So I just finished this job with 5 home-run motions to the CP. As I was doing training I told him about the tamper switches on the motions IS25100TC (front and back) that I wired in series with the alarm contacts. He thought that was great - then added, "so I'll be able to know right away when someone knocks the thing off the wall, right?". Of course the answer is 'no'. I never planned on putting the tampers on a separate 24 hour zone - otherwise I would have run 6 conductor. Now he wants that "feature", and the trick for sharing a 'common' wire for power and zone won't work as far as I can tell. Am I correct, or is there a way to do it without running more wire?
Zone Doubling is on the (V20P only) This feature provides two hardwired normally closed zones for each standard hardwired zone connected to the control's terminals (but does not increase the total number of zones supported by the control). If enabled (Zone Programming mode, "Hardwire Type" prompt, option "3"), hardwire zones are automatically paired as shown in the table. Connect as shown below (resistors provided). . Do not use zone doubling for fire zones. NOTE: A short across the EOL (i.e., at terminal) on either zone of a zone-doubled pair or on a double-balanced zone causes a tamper condition (displayed as CHECK plus zone numbers). Zone Doubling Table Zone Paired with zone
It looks like you might have to swap panels and upgrade (well it's Ademco so it's never really an upgrade) to a 20P to get the feature you want without extra wiring. If you switch to a DSC 1832 (about the same money for the kit - not much better or worse gear than Honeywell/Ademco) you can use the: Zone Status - Loop Resistance/Loop Status . Fault - 0? (shorted wire/loop) . Secure - 5600? (contact closed) . Tamper - infinite (broken wire, open) . Violated - 11,200? (contact open)
Thanks. The zone-double idea dawned on me when Jack told me what the acronym DEOL is. I have used DEOL many times on access control, but never named it :-)
I like yours and Doug's solution with the DSC panel. Thanks. Now I have to figure out what is the least hassle. Either way- the price just went up. I was never told he wanted that capability - but I take partial blame for not presenting it.
correct me if I'm wrong. you said the motions are tampered to the wall and the cover. so if a motion gets knocked off the wall the zone will be open. this will alert the owner of the problem. if so then you have no problem. do not think the owner has the tech expertise that you possess. he doesn't know about tamper zones or deol. don't make your job harder by assuming he does. he just needs to know that if a zone is faulted to go check it to see whats wrong. right?
It's a strange situation. This is the same one I posted about with the $500 budget.
It's a mini-storage. The manager lives on-site. We finally agreed (grudgingly) that a noisemaker would sound if someone ( or a bird, roach, or spider) was in the 3-story building I would provide a loud noise. That's it. I do not consider this a security system at all.. I used the Vista-15P panel purely because it's logic ability that could not be replicated cheaper with relays.
Our agreement was that this thing WILL false alarm, and often. It is not monitored or course. Now he want's to catch vandals in real time
- with my PIR's as bait. That was never part of the deal. I am already losing money on this shit. I should have never done it.
The whole issue with tampers came up when I was doing the training. I told him that they are tampered front and back - he thought that was great and assumed a tamper situation meant he would be alerted during the day.
Yes, the common wire method will work. You'll need one extra zone per detector unless your detectors have a form "C" tamper. In that case you can get by with one common tamper zone but it won't be fully supervised.
2-Zones per Sensor Method with the panel using negative for zone returns: At the panel:
- Connect Red to +12V Aux.
- Connect Black to Common Negative
- Connect Yellow to alarm zone
- Connect Green to tamper zone At the detector:
- Connect Red to +12VDC
- Connect Black to -12VDC
- Connect Yellow to alarm NC
- Connect Green to tamper NC
- Wire two EOL resistors in the PIR: - Connect 1st EOLR from -12VDC to alarm C - Connect 2nd EOLR from -12VDC to tamper C If the panel uses positive for the zone returns connect the EOLRs to the +12VDC in the PIR.
The above is the more secure of the two methods but it uses more zones. Following is less secure but uses only one tamper zone. The problem is it requires PIRs with a form C tamper.
At the panel: Wire everything the same as above but splice all of the Green wires together and run a pigtail from the bundle to one zone which is programmed for tamper. Jump the tamper zone with en EOLR.
At the detectors:
- Connect Red to +12VDC
- Connect Black to -12VDC
- Connect Yellow to alarm NO
- Connect Green to tamper NO
- Connect an EOLR from -12VDC to alarm C
- Jumper a wire from -12VDC to tamper C
This method supervises the alarm output but not the tamper circuit so it's not as secure as the first method. However, if there aren't enough zones for two per detector it's better than no tamper at all.
That won't work because I already stated the model # of the PIR's. The contact is NO. Which BTW Ademco labeled the contacts wrong... they think they do installers a favor by backwards labeling. NO means the contact is open in a shelf-state (like every relay is labeled) -
Ademco has it bass-asswards. When I see any component I adhere to shelf-state meaning no power applied. So a motion detector should land on the NO contacts of a normal "closed loop circuit", common in our industry. But Ademco, in their infinite wisdom, decided to switch the label - probably because most alarm techs have not graduated the 8th grade.. huh?
If you value your time its cheaper to swap the board. Hands down.
I've stayed away from this thread because You can never tell a client about possibilities or options without putting it in writing that it is EXTRA as an OPTION and putting a specific price on it or they expect if for free or as part of the basic setup price.
Also, if you give them too many options their brain locks up, and they don't buy at all.
So...just tell him you don't provide tamper service for a local account...it's GONNA be a pita for you anyway you know that right?
| >correct me if I'm wrong. you said the motions are tampered to the wall and | >the cover. so if a motion gets knocked off the wall the zone will be open. | >this will alert the owner of the problem. if so then you have no problem. | >do not think the owner has the tech expertise that you possess. he doesn't | >know about tamper zones or deol. don't make your job harder by assuming he | >does. he just needs to know that if a zone is faulted to go check it to see | >whats wrong. right? | >
| | | It's a strange situation. This is the same one I posted about with | the $500 budget. | | It's a mini-storage. The manager lives on-site. We finally agreed | (grudgingly) that a noisemaker would sound if someone ( or a bird, | roach, or spider) was in the 3-story building I would provide a loud | noise. That's it. I do not consider this a security system at all.. | I used the Vista-15P panel purely because it's logic ability that | could not be replicated cheaper with relays. | | Our agreement was that this thing WILL false alarm, and often. It is | not monitored or course. Now he want's to catch vandals in real time | - with my PIR's as bait. That was never part of the deal. I am | already losing money on this shit. I should have never done it. | | The whole issue with tampers came up when I was doing the training. I | told him that they are tampered front and back - he thought that was | great and assumed a tamper situation meant he would be alerted during | the day.
Jack, I need your help. I jumped into this without any management experience. Frank, Bob W, Jim R., and Allan helped with establishing my business. I really appreciated all their efforts.. But the bottom line is I am a technician. I know all about the technical side, but have no clue about the management side. Tom even offered his help which was greatly appreciated. I had no clue about the donotcall.gov stuff.
I will admit it.. I am not effective as a manager. I could use any help you proprietors are willing to offer.
my email is: firstname.lastname@example.org if you would prefer to send advice other than Usenet.