If thats really the case then the three systems that you keep going on about would also have fallen foul of the law since you have repeatedly stated that the customer hired electricians to install the systems.
member companies in the State of Florida, people start to listen.
The problem with most state alarm associations (and likely with the Florida chapter as well) is that they do not represent all their members. There's usually an inner cadre of golf buddies who control everything. The association becomes their spokesperson rather than that of the entire membership.
"The new rule allows a UL listed firm (or the building owner) to do the installation. It requires a UL listed monitoring center. I'll check with one of my clients (a captain in the Miami FD) to see if they also require runner service".
That comment Mr. Bass, just shows how much you don't know about a fire alarm system. I'll state the claim again..... "you must be a UL listed installer to install a fire alarm system in a commercial building in Miami-Dade, Boca Raton, Del Ray, Palm Beach County and parts of Lee county". The owner of a building cannot be UL listed. And, if he were to install a fire alarm system, how would he get a permit or a certificate of occupancy when the fire department won't inspect it. Who would respond to a fire?
And yes Mr. Bass, runner service is required. You would know that, if you knew what was required for Central Station Service was under NFPA 72.
Tell your customer (the Miami FD Captain you referred to), that the information about the new fire policy at the last Miami-Dade meeting with the fire alarm contractors and electricians, was given out by Lt. Joe Gagliano and Fire Marshall M.C. Mena., and went into effect on November 15, 2005. (If in fact you do have a customer in Miami that is a FD Captain). About 70 people including myself were in attendance.
Are you absolutely sure about that? Yes or No will do.
Since you're not UL listed (which is the
The reason I am not a UL listed is by choice, however, the reason I have an opinion about this is that the decision to mandated UL across the board is a violation, by these muni's, when there has been an adoption of the NFPA code, by the State of Florida and the Florida Building Code. The mandate is a decision made, as policy by an individual, and not that of the public and voted on as an ordinance. The decision is also made solely on the fact that these cities are broke and cannot support the inspection process and believe that it will be done by UL, as well as UL's claim that the certificate will reduce false alarms. I don't see that happening. Now you say that all is forgiven if someone installs their own system. Do you even know what the requirements of central station service are? Please give us your definition.
You are an idiot if you truely believe that.
They can install their own system in
Wrong, and I have never had an interest of installing fire alarms in Miami even before this mandate.
If that annoys you, perhaps you should
Why? I am already State Certified and the Statute, as well as the Florida Building Code, states that no one can require any additional certification of an already certified person or company.
If you are unwilling
Unwilling yes, incapable of, please. Have a couple of systems inspected and write a check is all that is required. Go peddle your innuendos on someone who cares.
that fire alarm system unless he is a UL listed installation company. He cannot even take it in for
That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever seen you post. In most jurisdictions, commercial fire alarm systems must be installed by a properly licensed electrician. They must also be designed and have the drawings sealed by an engineer. The only place this doesn't apply is "Sim City" and judging from your responses I'd say that's probably what you're playing so frequently that you can no longer distiguish between "real life" and the game.
Let's see... To take out an electrical permit in Miami, you need to be a licensed electrician. I suppose your "DIY clients in Miami" can do so (as long as they're licensed electricians). Are they??
Perhaps you should go peddle your wares in a group that's more appropriate to your "mantra".
If you're "unwilling or (more likely) incapable of" obtaining a Florida Alarm License "that is no one's problem but your own" as well.
fire alarm system unless he is a UL listed installation company. He cannot even take it in for
Nope. A building owner can't (install his own fire alarm system).
and test> Uh-huh. Yet you refuse to bring your company into compliance with > their standards.
Response to Bubble Butt's useless comment:
You can be in compliance with a standard or code without paying UL a membership fee. The standard is their for everyone to follow, regardless if you pay them or not. Sorta like you using everyone elses expertise as your own, except with the standards thing, it is acceptable and even recommended and encougaged, oh yes, and there are choices within the code and UL is not referenced anymore. Wonder why?
750 member companies > The problem with most state alarm associations (and likely with the
How would you know?
is that they do not represent all their
Yah that is right, the association lobbys the legislators to cater to a certain few. Not that you are one of the inner cadre, but I will say hello, for you, to the Senator in your district (Senator Mike Bennett) on Monday the 12th, when we have lunch. They only work locally on ordinance issues where those certain few operate their businesses. They only train technicians (10,000 in our training data base) for those companies that are perfered. They only publish a trade magazine that is sent to the Board of Directors. They only have eleven regions with regional directors for the eleven good ole' boys. They went out and founded the Southeast Security Alliance made up of nine states, that shares licensing issues, training and legislation support. You know the southeast if full of good ole' boys. Oh, and for those that are reading, Bubble Butt is not one of them. You need to be a State Certified contractor to belong. That is OK, I'll let him look through the window because he sure cannot get through the door.
Bubble Butt wrote: > There's usually an inner cadre of golf buddies who control
As if you would know....
Bubble Butt wrote: The association becomes their spokesperson rather than
Membership in the eleven regions vote for their regional director. They conduct their own regional meetings to deal with local issues and if needed get support from the other regions. Each regional director has a seat on the State Board of Directors, along with the Executive Board, elected by the membership at the General Assembly, two manufactures reps. elected by the manufactures group, one law enforcement official, one fire official, a governmental lobbyist, general counsel, and a CPA firm rep. There are also several committees with the committee chairpersons appointed by the president. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this about this State Association. You must have been thinking about the NBFAA, but than again how would you know about any of it when you cannot belong. Do you have any professional accreditations or affiliations at all? The ASA doesn't count.
First, poll the audience and see how many here are UL, other than some of the CS participants. You will find it is not very popular, however, there is a difference in the commitment to standards, especially when they provide a choice and choosing to pay a membership fee to a club, which in one aspect, has out lived its usefulness in certain areas of UL's total picture. You obviously have never been involved to know the difference, demonstrated by some of your post to the subject. You just like to be argumentative, whether you know about a subject of not, fueled by anyone elses opinions. It is OK to be a self proclaimed mavin but it is pretty obvious that you will go down in this newsgroup history as simply a "legend in your own mind."
So are you just too cheap to pay the fee which supports the standards writing agency and indirectly helps improve the quality of the industry at large? Or is it simply that you can't or won't adhere to the minimum standards set by UL?
Time for a reality check, Worthless. I've contributed more helpful posts to this and several other industry related forums over the past
8+ years than you ever will in a lifetime. I've used in my FAQ at most five or six comments made by others here and three or four from the automation newsgroup.
I'm not interested in knowing how many other guys here don't care about standards. The subject at present is your attacks on UL -- based entirely on the fact that you can't compete for commercial fire alarm jobs with firms that choose to adhere to the standards and to uphold those standards by paying their dues.
You babble on about a "commitment to standards" yet you refuse to u8phold those very standards. Please stop posting such rubbish.
Try to stay on track. No one is talking about the AAF. We're discussing the importance of following standards and submitting your work (I guess you call it that) to the authority of the standards writing agency. Instead of complying you choose to denigrate the agency.
My son is a fireman, so I have a special interest in compliance issues and I really don't relish the idea of him risking his life responding to a false alarm. Paying UL to be a listed company is not going to prevent someone from unnecessarily pulling a pull station or a faulty flow switch. Oh by the way, does the sprinkler system company have to be a UL listed company to work on a UL certified system, or the electrician that provided the power and breaker, or the telco company that installed the phone system that your second line is connected to, or the low voltage company that provided the wire for your dedicated line, or the phone company that is messing with the interface. Nope, just us lowly monkeys. There is an opening for you Robert!
I am not attacking anyone that hasn't already stepped in it and I am relaying nothing more than fact that has been uncovered by the States Attorneys office. If you think that this is an attack on UL, by me, than I must much more power that anyone realizes. Just this afternoon, I was informed that UL has hired a lobbyist in Tallahassee and was on a hand shaking mission at the special session. They are asking for support on writing an exemption to the laws they are in violation of. That's it guys, run with it as long as you can until you get caught, than try to get the exemption. Boy, I must be one powerful individual to have forced all of that. The problem they face is that what has been violated, has been by the muni's in the name of and at the direction of UL. Go attack your special needs nurse, Bubble Butt, it isn't working here.
Again, if you knew State law and if you knew the issues at hand, in each municipality this issue is present, you would realize the comments you are making are unfounded. You might as well be talking to a mirror.
Which standards Robert? You real don't realize that NFPA code gives you a choice, do you? Let me educate you Bubble Butt. NFPA does not specify UL. The issue is called "third party vertification". It has nothing to do with UL. UL is just one choice, you idiot. How much do you know about this subject? NIL!!! It is the same thing as mandating a particular distributor. What would people say if a city or county said, "to do business in Heartland, USA., you **must** buy from ADI. The question would be, Why, when you can buy the same product from other distributors. Than to make it worse, the next town wants you to buy from someone else inorder to do business. Then the one that tops the cake, one city tells you which branch of ADI they want you to buy from. In that county, it isn't good enough to be a UL listed company, you have to be on their prefered list. Who's paying who on that one. Talk about a restraint of trade. Substitute UL for where I put ADI and you will get the picture.That is exactly the fiasco that we are faced with on the UL issue. UL has lobbied cities and counties to take the choice, provided in NFPA, and mandate them as the sole provider, in some areas. They have failed to interpret NFPA, who they are in bed with, for some fire officials in other areas, letting them make policy, which violates the State adopted code, because it benefits their bottom line.
Just because you cannot separate the difference between a standard and a code doesn't mean it is rubbish. One can pin a standard on the wall and follow it, the code is adopted and shall be followed as well, and I believe the fire industry already does that. You can't get a permit or inspection without it, so I don't understand your statement about me not up holding the standards. I personally believe it is a big injustice to sell a commercial fire alarm to a DYIer, who doesn't even know a standard or code exists and all for the love of money. Shame! Shame! Maybe if you worked with it, you would understand the difference. It is funny how you talk out of the other side of your bass when the licensing issue is brought to you and your activities. You obviously feel you have a choice and if that choice is threatened you scream like baby. Just your arguementative personality I guess.
That is the problem. If UL gave a rats bass about anyones work, they would have a better inspection rate than 3-10% of the systems, installing companies and CS they list/certify. Are they serving life safety and the health, safety and welfare of the public or are they lining their pockets and not providing the services they are selling to the AHJ's. The 3-10% is self admitted in a public forum in front of the State Attorney and it is not my opinion or assumption. Thought I would clarify that before you put your spin on it.
Instead of complying you choose to denigrate the
I denigrate anyone that is operating outside the law. What is happening is not my opinion, it is fact presented to the State Fire Marshalls office, by the State Attorney's office. The reason it was taken to them is because the muni's that are violating the code report to the SFM. The SFM, by the way, hasn't adopted UL either. Third party verification when it is called for through one of the choices, yes, but not solely UL. Try attending an ECLB meeting once in awhile and see what you are missing but than again you don't give a rats bass, you would rather spew on assumptions.
Pot, kettle, black! At least I bring things to the group that is food for thought, whether people agree with me or not, since this is a national movement by UL. What effects us today may effect them tomarrow. I believe in being proactive. If one is for it, fine. If one is against it, fine. It doesn't effect me one way or the other even though you would like people to believe it does, because, again, you don't anything about me or my business(es). What you bring is anything that you think might discredit people, old material, insults, BS stories, and a history no one should be proud of. So sad you chose this industry to try and make a living in.
No thank you, it gives me a headache, much like conversations with you.
Yah, your right, I shouldn't be spending this much time with you. People might start talking. It is good for kicks and giggles though.
"Try attending an ECLB meeting once in awhile and see what you are missing."
I agree with everything you had to say Mr. Worthy...... BUT, PLEASE.....Don't tell Mr. Bass to go to an ECLB meeting.... He might meet licensed professional alarm company owners. He would definitely be out of place......