Re: Ping: Jim (Napco PCI-Mini)

Same here. I haven't needed one for panel access in years though clients are always using them. I wish the PCI-Mini would work with more models. Clients don't like coughing up $$ for the things when they already have one.

Or they could go with just about every other manufacturer which don't require useless and obsolete modules like that. They'd also get the job done in a fraction of the time Napco requires

Most choose Napco because of its power and flexibility. Some installing companies which mainly sell simple, quick-to-install packages might prefer another manufacturer, especially one that doesn't require technical know-how. I understand your preference.

The Napco PCI-Mini allows the DIY installer to quickly diagnose any problems that might arise during and after installation. It also provides a handy way to change user codes, setup scheduled auto-arming (in case the sitter forgets), etc. By accessing and editing the panel program on screen rather than through a row of LEDs or in some cases a 2-line, often-cryptic, keypad display, the client can avoid many programming errors.

Napco's systems are good for folks who want more power, more protection and more flexibility. For those who want to get in and out fast because all they care about is selling another monitoring contract to maximise revenue, Napco might not be the preferred choice.

I can teach a new DIYer to program the typical, 16- to 32-zone system in less than a half hour on the phone. Smaller jobs take about 20 minutes to configure. When he's done, my customer has a custom designed system that provides exactly what he wants. I feel this is considerably better than the usual "2 doors and 1 motion detector" package many companies offer.

I understand your preference for systems that the client can't program. After all, if he has the ability to program his own system, he can select whoever he likes to provide monitoring service or none at all. That doesn't fit well with companies like your employer.

Yet they still haven't created a decent IP module

A graphic touch keypad

A wireless keypad

Can your vaunted DIY customers download over cell? Uhh no yet DSC, GE/ Caddx, Honeywell can

Control over the Internet like Alarm.com? uhh no

That's the problem when you know only one brand, everyone else passes you by

Who is "most"? would they be your customers? If so the explanation is easy since thats the only panel you know anything about. Napco is no more powerful or flexible than any other brand. Napco takes far longer to download not because they are transferring any more data than anyone else but their method of data transfer is slow

The PC-Mini is a long obsolete piece of equpiment. No other manufacturer requires dongles like that to direct-connect their panels.

Napco doesn't seem to agree with you since they also make the low-end XP and GEM panels

Since you can only instruct them to download instead of keypad programming that doesn't surprise me but Does the Darth Vader breathing cost extra?

Which system would that be?

Vaunted?

Apparently, Napco feels there isn't much of a market for ta graphic touchpad. Considering how few of them Honeywell sells, they're probably right. True, Napco offers wireless keyfobs but has no wireless keypad. I get about 2 or 3 queries for one per year though we sell several Napco systems a day. I guess we can live without that one, too.

Napco has an IP interface but I have not tried it so I can't comment.

I don't recall anyone ever asking to do so. You, on the other hand, routinely harp on the "fact" that most installers don't download at all.

Same thing. Those who want Internet control usually ask for a home automation system. We sell those as well. However, a fair number of my clients have integrated Napco systems with PC-centric home automation systems. The systems can be accessed and controlled over the Internet or LAN.

Most what? The cited paragraph does not include the word, "most." I said that

*some* installers prefer quick-to-install systems. That has been discussed at length here for years and is certainly an accepted fact by anyone who deals in facts. I understand that you might disagree.

I primarily deal with my customers but you're still harping on "most."

I'm sure you'd like to believe that.

There over are 60 indepentantly selectably options for every zone on a typical Napco panel. System-wide options are far more flexible than anything from Honeywell, GE or DSC -- arguably the most popular brands among dealers who post here. Napco is also far better built than DSC.

anyone else but their method of data transfer is slow

If you find it slow then you're not doing it right. The typical Napco panel takes a few seconds to download. Contrast that with DSC, which takes so long and requires trips from panel to keypad and back just to get started. Data transfer to a Napco panel via PCI-Mini (in case you don't remember, that is the subject of this thread) is lightning fast by comparison.

The PC-Mini is a long obsolete piece of equpiment. No other manufacturer requires dongles like that to direct-connect their panels.

Then again, most panels can't be direct-connected at all or, like Honeywell, require a more costly -- *dedicated* -- serial interface which cannot be used for any other purpose. The same is true of GE panels. But then, you're the guy who claims that downloading is of no importance since almost no dealers (according to you) use downloading software.

On that subject, I think it's worth examining your perspective. You work for a company that monitors and programs panels for dealers around the country. As such, you're more likely to encounter a subset of dealers -- those who have less need to use downloading software. In all probability your perspective is inaccurately colored by not being exposed to *most* installers. I don't say this to belittle you -- only to point out that you may not be seeing the overall picture.

It is certain that my perspective as to end user needs varies from yours since my clients are mainly DIYers. My average customer has more skills and a better understanding of or, at least, a greater interest in learning his security system's capabilities. As such, the DIY user is more likely to insist on the kind of flexibility Napco offers. He may have been be snookered by some character into buying a DSC or something like that but that won't happen again.

I haven't sold any of those panels. Come to think of it, I don't recall any customers ever asking about them either.

Only an idiot would prefer keypad programming Napco panels. There are too many ways to screw up the system doing it that way. Using the free downloading software it's a snap to get it right the first time.

Huh??

Any system you program and then lock out so the end user who owns it can't access programming of his own security system.

Honeywell is selling a lot of them which is why they have 3 on the market now with a 4th out soon

Well you have no choice and just because you get 2 or 3 queries a year doesn't mean they aren't wanted

Only works with a couple of panels and even then requires a chip upgrade, not easy to set up behind firewalls

Well you don't offer the equipment and don't know it exists so I imagine nobody asks you about it

I did say most installers don't download, it has nothing to do with this discussion.

I'm talking about those who don't have home automation systems which far outnumber those who do. A home automation system shouldn't be required to do something simple like control an alarm panel over the Internet

GE, 2GIG and Honeywell can, Napco can't

Offset by the limited CID or SIA signal reporting, lack of hardware like the previously mentioned graphics keypads, more diverse wireless and expansion modules that everyone else has

I've downloaded DSC and Honeywell a number of times over IP without making trips between panels and keypads, you must be thinking old products again

Yea it's called a cellular or IP module which every system should have these days and also allows controlling over the Internet..

Honeywell offers over a dozen different cellular or IP products that are bus-compatible with their panels, Napco offers 2 and they only do dialer capture

I never said it was not important, I said few installers do it

My information came from Honeywell, DSC, Napco and GE engineers and reps over the years not my own perspective.

That is your perspective however since you ONLY know how to download and do not know or are inexperienced with keypad programming it makes sense that most of your customers will download their panels. As we found with the guy from Greece last month not everyone has the equipment or wants to download a panel just to change one or two minor programming locations.

With all your experience you couldn't help him, with my supposedly limited experience I could

Well if you don't sell them people don't generally ask about them

Napco doesn't supply those 3 big programming/installation manuals in every panel because they think people are idiots. I assumed that some of that 20 minutes you claim to spend educating the customer is about simple keypad programming, guess I was wrong

heh

I've known these guys for many years and have no reason to doubt them. Conversely, I've seen you dissemble for years and have no reason to trust your word on anything.

I never claimed that my business, which caters to DIY, is representative of the industry at large. The fact is though, that there is not a lot of demand for expensive touch screens to control burglar and fire alarms. Home automators sometimes use them, but even among that group interest is marginal due to the cost.

That you believe having a few touch scrteens makes Honeywell "cutting edge" says more about your lack of knowledge than you might realize.

Now you're claiming that you can download a Napco system faster without a PCI-Mini than someone elese who is using one. There's no end to your bullshit, Leuck. There is *no* faster way to DL a Napco panel than via PCI-Mini, no matter who is doing it.

Neither FBII nor Honeywell makes a single panel that can interface with

3rd-party apps like Homeseer. Honeywell's top-of-the-line panels don't even come close. So much for their "cutting edge" technology.

No one asked because no one ever needed to do it. People ask if something is possible because they want it -- not because it's already doable. Keep trying though, Leuck. This is fun.

You'd like to think that.

On the contrary, it is you who don't understand. In order to assure remote access via the Internet, the local system *must* have constant access. That's so simple even you should have known it.

Phone connections are still far more ubiquitous than Internet. In the few locations where no telco line is present Napco panels can communicate using cellular communicators, the same as many other makes do. Napco also allows for connection and/or monitoring over IP, but as previously explained, it's still not a popular option.

You figure a system connected to the Internet is hacker-proof? On what planet do you spend most of your waking hours?

Yes, I have looked at the Vista-20P's configurable zone types -- all 25 options. Clearly you have not. :^)

You can find them listed on the worksheet in the Vista-20P installer manual. There are 10 data points for each zone. That's it. I've forgotten exactly how many total programmable points there are in the Vista-20P's memory. IIRC, it's around three or four hundred addresses. The *basic* Napco Gemini P1632 there are 1198 programmable addresses. I need to clarify something here. There are over 60 options on the P3200 and up. The lowlt P1632 has only 51 options for each zone.

You've made several snide comments recently about me not helping someone program a Napco Gemini panel by keypad. The reason I don't like keypad programming Napco is two-fold. First, keypad data entry is prone to errors which can cause serious problems. Second, Napco has so many options that keypad programming any of their larger systems is impractical. There's a third reason which is particular to my business model. Since I sell online it's a given that virtually every customer has access to a PC and can use the software. For my customers and for my staff (who also know how to program systems) it is simply far better to do things using these new-fangled computing machines. :^)

That's a dodge and typical of your way of losing a debate. When presented with facts that contradict your premise you post an insult. Back to the point, even your company's system displays zone information on alarm screens. That's common knowledge.

That is not true. The zone type AND the zone ID are sent, just as they are with every other panel using the formats. Armed with that information, the CS computer can tell the operator *exactly* what is happening and *exactly* where in the protected premises the problem is.

If your company does not utilise this valuable capability of the systems they monitor you are doing your customers a terrible disservice. Do tell, Leuck. Does Monitronics display this critical data so that police can be guided to the point of entry or do they just ignore it and tell the police that a zone programmed as "Interior Follower" or some such has been tripped?

File the above with the Department of Redundancy Department. :^)

I never had to explain anythying like that. If Zone 11 has a temperature sensor in it, the CS' data entry sheet is noted with "Zone 11 - Low Temperature". When the zone trips the operator sees on screen, "Low Temperature Alarm" along with the contact information.

Every central station in the country uses a data entry form so that installers can specify what kind of sensor is in each zone (not just the zone programming options) as well as the precise location of the monitored device.

Working in New England, I routinely installed temperature monitoring devices. We monitored them for more than 20 years and never once had trouble understanding the display on an operator's screen when one was tripped.

You made my point. It's not just the alarm code but the zone ID that defines what went off. With that information, which is standard everywhere, sub-zone type is of marginal to the responding personel. Furthermore, if the alarm company really wants that information to be displayed, it can very easily be included in the data entry when the system is connected for monitoring.

We're talking about panels. Lots of companies make CO detectors and Napco can monitor them. Why would you even want a CO2 detector?

Had what?

Honeywell only recently came out with wireless asset protection sensors. I've had one client who wanted to use them but it turned out they would not function in his application (a train, actually). If another customer ever asks for wireless asset protection, I'll consider them again.

I'd like to see Napco make a wireless keypad. That would be nice.

I have a number of customers who already own DSC systems. They occasionally need parts. The same is true of FBII. They haven't made a new panel in ages but people still use them, including one eastern European country that loves using them for their consulates. Go figure.

I don't believe you.

I recently added the P1664 to our website. It has some nice features and supports Napco's new keypads, including the ones with temperature display and monitoring. Nice.

He's trying to revoke Al Gore's Nobel Prize with his sensor array. Gatherin' data, man!

Either that or he's spending a lot of time breathing into a paper bag.

Hey here is a neat idea, try asking Honeywell

Expensive? Hardly

Someone who think customers don't want color touchscreens is a fool

I didn't say Napco panel, it's a comparison

Apparently then your entire website is only filled with items customer's requested, interesting

You've yet to prove me wrong, when someone here asks about it you strangely go quiet

Only when the customer is accessing it or when the hardware needs to send an update

One-way communication unlike what the other makes can do

If you've dealt with the setup and the chip changes yea I can see why it's not popular

Have fun trying to hack an Alarm.com module, that'll be fun

Well you have to know how to do it first

In most systems including Napco you don't have that many locations that require programming, apparently you don't know that. Hey I hear Napco even has a nifty quick program menu

And to sell them obsolete dongles, modems etc, I'm suprised you don't charge them for the software

Yes they do and they include other information like CID and SIA zone type and a lot more events than what is capable of being sent by a Napco panel

You have 8 total CID or SIA events that can be sent by a zone, it can't send waterflow, freeze, true medical, sprinkler and a number of other critical signals, everyone else can and has been able to for years

Of course and we get the bonus CID "Interior follower" signal as well

File Napco under Obsolete"

Yes and it includes a CID burg signal that your forced to program for that zone because of the limitations of the panel

Many require the correct event code instead of some screwy automation changes you'd have to make with your panel, hell you might as well just send 4/2

A train? Umm okay

Yet you claim they are substandard panels

ADT is somewhere close to that figure, Brinks is the largest installer of Honeywell IP products.

But your customers don't care for cellular/IP products, thats funny!

Close, I'm working on revoking Obama's Peace Prize

Yea I have no problems breathing, how about you?

Who do you think owns ADI?

Someone who thinks a significant percentage of customers wants them enou8gh to pay a premium price is... well, you.

I didn't say Napco panel, it's a comparison...

To what? I've downloaded Napco, DSC, Honeywell, etc. Napco is the fastest, hands-down.

Nice try. I didn't say that I don't offer things unless they're requested. I said that not many people are interested in graphical touchscreens. That doesn't mean we don't offer them. It only means they're not particularly popular. Since my markup on the touchscreens is the same as on conventional keypads, it's got nothing to do with *my* price either. It's a simple fact. Try real hard to think. I believe you can do it even if no one else does.

Wrong again. I've answered the question several times. I don't recommend keypad programming a Napco Gemini system. If someone wants help I'll gladly spend as much time as he needs on the phone teaching him how to use Napco's software. If you want to teach someone how to keypad program, feel free. I've noticed you only offer help to DIYers if you think you can show me up. The rest of the time you only post snide remarks. It shows the kind of person you are. That's kind of sad actually.

If you want to be able to access a panel over the Internet you have to ensure the panel has constant access. This isn't all that complicated. Maybe if you squint real hard you'll grasp it.

I'll snip the rest of this. You've nothing to contribute.

Obama scored a major victory over the entire Repugnant Party this weekend. Healthcare reform passed the House of Representatives. Now on to the Senate. Many folks on both sides of the aisle expect that Joe Lieberman, the Traitor from CT, will side with the Repugnants and block the bill from the floor. But there's more to this than meets the jaundiced, Repugnant eye.

Watch what happens when Lieberman loses his not only his chairmanship, but even his seat on the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, Environment and Public Works Committee and (most important) the Senate Armed Services Committee. For a senator, the most important thing is power. Power brings in huge campaign donations from corporate America. Junior senators get very little support because they wield little power to do the bidding of their corporate bosses. Guys like Lieberman get huge donations because they chair powerful comittees. No chairmanship = no power and that means no money.

If Lieberman filibusters healthcare reform with the Repugnant Party as promised, he will retain his lucrative chairmanships... for about 5 minutes. Unlike many Repugnants, Joe is no dummy. He knows what will happen to him and he's not about to let that well run dry. This is going to be fun...

[film at 11] :^)

The bill is dead and it isn't because of the "Repugnants" or Joe

Did you see his addendum to Title 10? Trying to form his own Obamastassi by expanding the powers of what are essentially mall cops...

Mall cops? Hardly. Also, though the bill was introduced in January of this year, it was authored before Obama was elected. Debate its validity if you please but implying it's an attempt by Obama to create his own secret police force ("Obamastassi" was your word) is disingenuous at best. The truth of the matter is that Obama is far more in favor of individual rights and far less supportive of state "police powers" than his predecessor, the right-wing nutcase who gave us the unPatriot Act.

Here's the title of the amendment to Title 10. It's a House bill introduced by Democrat Bob Filner:

I find it interesting that the only way this bill has any chance of passing is with threats, I doubt Joe cares much about the party that tried eliminating him in his last election.