When my Mustang was new I was going to put in a superchip thingie until I found out I'd have to remove it if I needed warrantee work done on the car, then reinstall it after Ford work was done or it would void the warrantee.
| > Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then | > it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being | > available to the general public. | | It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program the | panel | | |
| It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program the | panel
Maybe not, dunno, but do know he's a helluva coder-dood.
| > Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then | > it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being | > available to the general public. |
But they don't SECURE it as if they only want professionals to have it. I could give one username and password out to ALL of my dealers and tell them not to tell anyone else and to only access their own accounts or the things they are competent enough to access, but they won't, regardless of my "explicit statement", therefore proper security is required if you only want "professional dealers" to use the resources you make available to everyone. And I say "made available to everyone" because it obviously IS, password or not.
Cars do not need to be initially programmed by the user (or Dealer for that matter) to make them work. They work as-is, out-of-the-box.
This is a matter of Controlling who is working with your hardware. Even a Professional doesn't always know what they are doing nor should be programming a panel they have not had enough experience with (I see it every day!).
Even a Professional can't download someone elses panel if that panel has been secured properly by the "Professional" that originally installed it. If an end-user gets the software, then if the Professionals do their job, there is no worry of the end-user doing something they shouldn't with someone elses panel. Mmaybe they could include an "explicit statement" to the end-user telling them they should only use the software on their own panel, think that would keep everyone honest ;)
Yes, the manual indicates that you must have an alpha keypad to program the zones using the Menu Mode. But when reading I kept getting the impression there was a way to program them without using Menu Mode since I didn't have an alpha keypad. Apparently Not, so I either needed to purchase an alpha keypad just so I could program the panel, or get the Software. I already had a usable modem so I opted to download the software.
I think you are under the impression that I HAVE an alpha keypad. I do not. It does say "if you have an Alpha Keypad then you can use the Menu Mode to program your Wireless zones". It doesn't say "if you don't, then you need to get an alpha keypad or use the software", so I kept searching for a way to program the wireless zones with a non-alph keypad. It wasn't a matter of knowing how to do it, it was a matter of knowing if I had the proper Tools to do it. Once I knew I didn't have the proper tool, I got the tool and did the job, no problem. I just want to make sure the Tool required to complete the job didn't require purchasing additional hardware because the software wasn't available to me, someone perfectly competent to use it and understand the consequences of invalid programming, yet I wouldn't call myself a "Professional Dealer" per se because I'm not a Technician or Installer.
The community is a big place and the password has been posted often enough to be found somewhere on the Internet (never by ME, I wouldn't do that). That's just bad security. I'm not suggesting just anyone SHOULD have access, I'm just saying if they were SERIOUS about just professionals having it, then they would secure it better. I have no sympathy for anyone who doesn't secure a secured site properly. EULA's are useless to the end-user, they just don't care because no one will sue them because there is no standard to go by to determine who qualifies as a "Professional".
Legally speaking, you are correct in every way. But, the Internet is a big world, Warnings and EULA's are impossible to enforce in this scenario. You Must secure your data/information/applications properly or the undesirables Will get it.
You are talking about a peice of hardware that is completely programmed and configured and ready to go and doesn't need any end-user or dealer tweaking, compared to a piece of hardware that has no useful smarts until it is configured properly. You can't alter the core programming on an Alarm Panel either, you can only muck with parameters. Mucking up the right parameters in a perfectly good car/alarm system can make critical functions fail. I know people who have the hardware and software to pull-over and plug in their laptop to their truck to change it's performance (because the configured it for better off-road performance but then it performed terribly once back on the freeway). Not a dealer or technician, just a guy who knows computers and cars and the right sources of the necessary equipment. Sure the stuff isn't available to the general public, but there is ALWAYS a way to get it, as we've just seen here, there is always some who Was in the business but now isn't and feels they have no obligation to anyone to keep the secrets. It is unfortunate, so we must be prepared for them by securing things by USER not by COMMUNITY. There is always a user in the community that will become corrupt. It's inevitable.
True, the installer code could be necessary. The CSID can be reset to blank if you know the installer code.
I'd just default my panel according to the documentation and start from scratch (I already know what my zones are and how they should respond).
I would do the same thing :) I'm not saying I'd like to support an end-user doing this. Nor would I expect to be supported if I were the end-user. I also expect to be completely responsible for any programming errors that might cause undesirable results. I pity the Monitoring Centers that must deal with the end-user-do-it-yourselfers but I'm glad They are doing it instead of me.
You are correct. I started down that road, programming it blind, realizing the prompts are still there as expected, but found the manual's examples didn't have every scenario so I had too much trouble predicting what to enter next. If I had done it before with an Alpha keypad, then it would not have been a problem to figure out, but I hadn't.
We, as a Monitoring Center, will not monitor for an End User for many/all of these reasons. You never know how much the end-user knows about everything involved in programming and monitoring an alarm system. I would always recommend a Professional Installer who *has experience* with the equipment being installed. ESPECIALLY if it is being Monitored since that is usually where the confusion of codes and zones and formats hits home. Most installers don't even realize how complicated Monitoring can be for so many different systems and formats and concepts (every dealer has a different concept of how his customers signals should be handled).
I expect an End-User could call Honeywell and sweet-talk the password out of them by pretending to be a Dealer. I don't expect Honeywell has any way or would wish to spend the time to confirm who is a "Professional" and who is not.
Still, don't give out the username and password if it is not yours to give and this discussion would never have started.
The fact that the site *is* secured at all should tell you that they don't want "just anyone" to access the software. The fact that the softwares EULA also indicates it's intented to be used by qualified service personnel should also tell you that they don't want "just anyone" to have access to it... You seem to miss these important points (as does the individual that provided you with the user id and password. If you were to call one of your local dealers and ask them to supply you with access the Honeywell Dealer site, what would they say??
Boy are *you* wrong. Cars are "programmed" at the factory. Yes, the Dealer has to do very little in the way of "intervention", because they *do* work "out of the box". GM (Ford, Chrysler, etc.) won't give you access to programming though, and there's no way for you to alter critical functions. On GM vehicles equipped with "Onstar", you also don't have the option of using another provider. With the panel software you can pretty well do anything you want (including "nulling" the zones, telco numbers and account codes).
Right!!! Just like the factory trained mechanic for your car is also capable of making some alteration to the software that runs critical functions. I understand that there are chip readers out there that will give you the ability to view the different settings, but won't allow you to alter them.
A "Professional" technican/Dealer has access to manufacturer sponsored training that an end-user won't. It behooves any Dealer that employs technicians to ensure they're adequately trained on the equipment they sell. If they don't, they're not being efficient and they're losing money!!
That won't help. If, for instance the end-user wants to use the software he purchases from some online retailer on his own system, he has to call his Dealer and get the access codes (and in some instances the CSID number which the software "writes" to the panel on the initial download). I know of no Dealer that would give that informtaion out to an end-user. Doing so would compromise every panel they have that uses that same software.
If you were my customer and decided you wanted to program your own equipment using Dealer software, I'd say... "Sure, send me a cheque for the balance of your contract, then we'll default your panel and you can find yourself another monitoring centre and servicing Dealer. Good-bye!!"
There is a way to program the panel without the Alpha keypad. You have to be familiar with the panel's reponses though to do it. I couldn't "teach" you how to, nor would I want to. The method is far more prone to error if you're unfamiliar with the equipment. Leave the programming of the panel to someone that is trained to do so. If you don't like the fact that they're going to "restrict" you then your option is to have the system defaulted to a local panel, purchase a remote dialler module and program that to call your cell phone. Of course, you could always call up "NextAlarm" and have them send you their dialler. From what I've read and seen in this group though, I'd have some concerns on how they deal with their customers as well...
One company's idea of "securing" the dealer section of their website is always open to criticism. I have no problem with the way Honewell/Ademco have gone about doing it. It's Dealers like us that must accept the responsibility of what *we* do with the information. Mr. Bass is *not* a Dealer. He runs an online store that caters specifically to Do-It-Yourselfers. I have no problem with "DIY". In fact I've helped many find the products they need and a reputable online retailer that will provide the support they require. Unfortunately Mr. Bass seems to think that because the Honeywell site can be accessed by a "universal" log-in, and others have already disseminated that information over the web, it's perfectly alright for him to continue to do so... That's *not* what an ethical Dealer would do...
Agreed.
You obviously aren't familiar with DSC or you wouldn't say this.
I'm not suggesting Mr. Bass has "become corrupt". All I'm saying is that his ethics as an online retailer differ hugely from those of the participants here. I'm also saying that if you're going to participate here (in a forum of largley alarm professionals), you're expected to follow some basic guidelines and principles. Mr. Bass has demonstrated on more than one occasion that he considers such practices (and Professional ethics) completely irrevelent. He's often attacked the trade as well in support of his "DIY Mantra" in this forum. It's only one of several reasons why he's not well liked or respected here.
Once again, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge when it comes to Ademco panels. If the CSID of the downloading computer doesn't match the CSID in the panel, it doesn't matter if you have the installer code or not. The panel will refuse to connect.
Feel free.
I don't believe any UL (or ULC) listed monitoring centre would accept an end-user programming their own equipment. If you know of one, I'd be interested in hearing about it...
You're wrong about that too.
I think you're barkin' up the wrong tree there bud... I'm not the one that provided the info. No alarm professional worth his salt would do that either.
When I WAS downloading a lot of ademco panels, I understood that if you default the CSID in the panel or manually enter all F's, then Anyones software can perform an initial download (which will set the panel CSID to the softwares CSID preventing any else from downloading it). Once in installer mode, there is a command to "Initialize Download ID". Does that not mean what it says?
I am definitely not familiar with all panels defaults and available, I didn't intend to make a general statements about "all" panels. I just know that with this particular wireless package (a sealed box direct from Ademco), even an "experienced" tech would have had trouble programming the wireless zones without the software (of course a REAL professional would have a spare alpha keypad in the truck to program the system, then change it out with the non-alpha keypad that came in the box, or, have someone in the office to program it for them).
I guess I just have an Open Source mentality which doesn't belong here (me being a software developer and all). Open Source, not Open Access. I feel like the individual who has the technical skills and no money to spend on a professional installer, should have the opportunity to program their systems themselves. Unless we are assuming someone who doesn't have the money also doesn't have the technical skills. I suppose they need to find a system that either allows programming software to the end-use, or figure out the keypad programming. If neither of those work for them, then they have a nice big paper-weight and have no right to use that equipment to help provide them a sense of security (other then throwing it at the burglar). Enabling the DIY just isn't part of Honeywells business plan and we should respect that as such. These panels were not intended to be sold to end-users or DIY's. They are to be sold to professionals who know how to program them (with or without the software).
O c'mon, it's a public post, I wasn't implying you did, nor do I expect you would based on your views here. It was to Anyone who might think it is OK to do so. Apparently there is only ONE person here who really thinks it OK to give it out. And it's NOT YOU, to make that clear :)
Yes, if more then one person has the same username/password, then there is potential for abuse because you have now lost control as to who that other person thinks is competent enough to have the username/password, and so on, which we have seen here today. Someone gave it to someone who gave it to someone who posted it here for everyone.
Ideally. A professionals point-of-view is most always going to be "leave it to a professional" but some people don't have that luxury and would like to Become a professional on their own system on their own time.
It indicated there is Expert Programming mode or Menu Mode. I assumed Expert Mode meant no menu prompts. But earlier in the manual it does say "you must use a 2-line alpha display keypad". Unfortunately, when purchased, that was in the box and since I haven't done them before, I had no way of knowing that.
Now now, you have no idea of my competence level in this area to be making comments like that. A lack of experience doesn't imply the lack of competence required to figure it out. Being on the Monitoring end of things I believe I've programmed my own system much better then most of the system I see thrown in every day by "professionals". I've talked installers and technicians through programming panels because they didn't understand them. I've interpreted screwed-up codes and formats to explain to them what they programmed wrong. Granted field-for-field I don't know how Every panel deals with different issues, but I have a full understand as to how and why they work. Just because I don't already know, without referring to and getting to know the manual, doesn't ipmly a badly programmed system. You as a "professional" I'm sure can relate to running into an old panel that you've had no experience with, but you got it wo work. Albeit, god know how well you did ;)
Yes, but in order to do so you must default the panel at the keypad. If the downloading agency has locked it from local programming there's no way you're going to gain access to it with another computer that's using Compass
*unless* they (by some miracle) match the CSID.
Check!!
I've got no problem with that either. As long as the system remains "local" and isn't monitored. The individual I won't mention used to sell monitoring. He'd provide anyone with a valid credit card the information necessary to program their own panel to call his third party central station. That facility was under the mistaken (I'm sure) impression that their *Dealer* was actually doing the programming. I'm almost certain if they new the end user had access to installer level programming, they'd have "kaniptions".
He can "acquire" all the technical skills he needs in just "about two hours" on the phone with a certain individual that used to post here but whose name I won't mention.
I agree to a certain extent. The DIY market (in the US at least) is *huge*. Heck, I've even installed a sink all by myself (and I'm in Canada). There are certain things that individuals gifted with some mechanical or technical expertise can do, and others things that they can't.
Compass software is unprofessional and prehistoric.
Crayola could do a better job with the Compass web site.
It does the job, but so does a haitian (or mexican if you live in the US)
Do you use a Haitian or Mexican to install your alarm systems for your clients? (with this I mean illegal aliens, not being racist, just telling it like it is)
well foe real, but that it is prehistoric and it is owned by cunnywell, means it is unprofessional, seeing that a huge company like cunnywell cant come up with something better yet. Its in the top 10 of one of the worst software proggys ive ever used.....
No one here programs panels anymore, we leave it up to the Dealers. Kay and I were usually downloading them from the office for Jim when he was installing them (over 15 years ago now).
Cabling-Design.com Forums website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.