$500 budget - hmmm...

Been in the security business long? Lots of those jackasses out there. js

I've been in the bus. for 16 years, but just now for myself. I've always been the tech. Now I'm dealing with the other end.

There are many of them huh? What do you do, just walk away or try to emphasize the importance of security and hard sell?

I laugh in their face and drive away. If you're just starting out, you might need to use more tact. But you'll eventually find out who is serious and who isn't. I try to pre qualify them over the phone, but that doesn't even work sometimes. They'll say yes to anything, then you send a proposal and....crickets. "Oh, we'll think about it." Companies like ADT, P1 et al have ruined the business for everyone. The public now believes that security should be free, and then have no qualms about defaulting on the contracts they don't even bother to read. I have thought seriously about charging for my proposals; no more free estimates. Might help weed out the dopes.

And then I wake up and it's back to work.

js

lol.. I have spent many hours making pretty proposals, taking time to get price on each item (my-ADI ain't easy to navigate), then sending it to Kinko's for $20 blinded printing and ... crickets!!!!!! The bad thing is I went from technician to owner without management skills first. I've been harping certain folks here I trust for any kind of information I can get by email. You're on the list BTW, I just don't what level of 'bozo' you classified me in years past, so there is some hesitation to ask for help. I've always admired you, Jim, Allan, Rob (Crash), Frank, Bob W., Bob C., Jack LeP, Norm, and others that names escape me now for going it alone. You guys were the inspiration for me to start my own deal, and I appreciate the fact that you all are open in this forum.

Exactly!! They do, don't they! When I first started in '90 the 'free' s*it was not so widespread. It was common for a resi customer to pay 2-5K for a real system. I worked for all the big ones, and some small ones to gain insight to how they do business.

Nobody will pay for a estimate now...

yep.. ;-))

LOL Yeah, well we all tip the Bozo scale now and again. Well, except Doug and Mark. And maybe Crash. Donno. $20 bound proposal?? Yikes! I have a Word template with most of the headings and common language already there. I put in the relevant info., convert it to pdf and e-mail it out the same day. (Ususlly) If I get a positive response, I use that "quick-bid" as an outline to produce a formal proposal, which contains all the legal stuff, disclaimers, etc.

This is a great forum with a lot of experienced people as you know. I wish you well and will help you if I can. js

Bid it the right way!

But don't spec. out every little detail/model number for someone else that's bidding. I make my bid just detailed enough to let them know what areas we're protecting that's about it on these kind of things. Then if I get a second bite on it despite being WAY over 500 bucks I'd go back and talk some more...otherwise walk away.

This one sounds like a loss already though, unless you can get past the flunky.

| >> So this guy (manager) wants to solve this little problem, but he has a | >> $500 budget directive from the owner! Now, what kind of owner would | >> let 52 units -> yes, FIFTY TWO > NOW want something done for an unrealistic price? I'll tell you - | >> this guy must be a real gem, I have not met him and don't want to. | >>

| >> The bad thing is I can't help him right now because he needs to meet | >> the physical needs first. There is insufficient lighting, | >> non-existent access control, and no physical barriers to the property. | >> Man, it's a wonder there are any tenants at all. I thought about | >> quoting something below $500, but I can't think of anything that would | >> come close to what they need in that price, a DVR costs me twice that. | >> I just can't believe this guy has a two-page yellow page spread and | >> won't even provide security for his customers. | >

| >Been in the security business long? | >Lots of those jackasses out there. | | | I've been in the bus. for 16 years, but just now for myself. I've | always been the tech. Now I'm dealing with the other end. | | There are many of them huh? What do you do, just walk away or try to | emphasize the importance of security and hard sell? | | |

Hey we're all Bozos on this bus!

| >> Moe Szyslak wrote: | >>

| >>> I've been in the bus. for 16 years, but just now for myself. I've | >>> always been the tech. Now I'm dealing with the other end. | >>>

| >>> There are many of them huh? What do you do, just walk away or try | >>> to emphasize the importance of security and hard sell? | >>

| >> I laugh in their face and drive away. If you're just starting out, | >> you might need to use more tact. But you'll eventually find out who | >> is serious and who isn't. I try to pre qualify them over the phone, | >> but that doesn't even work sometimes. They'll say yes to anything, | >> then you send a proposal and....crickets. | >

| > lol.. I have spent many hours making pretty proposals, taking time to | > get price on each item (my-ADI ain't easy to navigate), then sending | > it to Kinko's for $20 blinded printing and ... crickets!!!!!! The bad | > thing is I went from technician to owner without management skills | > first. I've been harping certain folks here I trust for any kind of | > information I can get by email. You're on the list BTW, I just don't | > what level of 'bozo' you classified me in years past, so there is some | > hesitation to ask for help. I've always admired you, Jim, Allan, Rob | > (Crash), Frank, Bob W., Bob C., Jack LeP, Norm, and others that names | > escape me now for going it alone. You guys were the inspiration for | > me to start my own deal, and I appreciate the fact that you all are | > open in this forum. | | LOL | Yeah, well we all tip the Bozo scale now and again. Well, except Doug and | Mark. And maybe Crash. Donno. | $20 bound proposal?? Yikes! I have a Word template with most of the | headings and common language already there. I put in the relevant info., | convert it to pdf and e-mail it out the same day. (Ususlly) If I get a | positive response, I use that "quick-bid" as an outline to produce a formal | proposal, which contains all the legal stuff, disclaimers, etc. | | This is a great forum with a lot of experienced people as you know. I wish | you well and will help you if I can. | js | |

He probably has that many customers because his rates are dirt-cheap... which is why he has no security budget, especially after paying for the ads.

Build yourself an Excel spreadsheet with your most commonly used parts and prices. Takes me less than an hour to design, spec and price out a proposal. I still have to type it up, but I'm working on that aspect.

Hey...there's still a niche for the small guys. My average residential jobs have been running between 2500-6000 lately...so don't underbid and put a profit on everything. So I don't get every job I bid these days, but what the heck...if there's profit in it I don't have to rush and can take my time to design and install it with pride. Don't compete with the idiots...they eventually disappear from the phone book.

"Moe Szyslak" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | alarman wrote: | | >Moe Szyslak wrote: | >

| >> I've been in the bus. for 16 years, but just now for myself. I've | >> always been the tech. Now I'm dealing with the other end. | >>

| >> There are many of them huh? What do you do, just walk away or try to | >> emphasize the importance of security and hard sell? | >

| >I laugh in their face and drive away. If you're just starting out, you might | >need to use more tact. But you'll eventually find out who is serious and who | >isn't. I try to pre qualify them over the phone, but that doesn't even work | >sometimes. They'll say yes to anything, then you send a proposal | >and....crickets. | | lol.. I have spent many hours making pretty proposals, taking time to | get price on each item (my-ADI ain't easy to navigate), then sending | it to Kinko's for $20 blinded printing and ... crickets!!!!!! The bad | thing is I went from technician to owner without management skills | first. I've been harping certain folks here I trust for any kind of | information I can get by email. You're on the list BTW, I just don't | what level of 'bozo' you classified me in years past, so there is some | hesitation to ask for help. I've always admired you, Jim, Allan, Rob | (Crash), Frank, Bob W., Bob C., Jack LeP, Norm, and others that names | escape me now for going it alone. You guys were the inspiration for | me to start my own deal, and I appreciate the fact that you all are | open in this forum. | | | >"Oh, we'll think about it." | >Companies like ADT, P1 et al have ruined the business for everyone. The | >public now believes that security should be free, and then have no qualms | >about defaulting on the contracts they don't even bother to read. | | Exactly!! They do, don't they! When I first started in '90 the | 'free' s*it was not so widespread. It was common for a resi customer | to pay 2-5K for a real system. I worked for all the big ones, and | some small ones to gain insight to how they do business. | | | > I have | >thought seriously about charging for my proposals; no more free estimates. | >Might help weed out the dopes. | | Nobody will pay for a estimate now... | | | >And then I wake up and it's back to work. | | yep.. ;-)) |

After interviewing a few "authorized dealers" he came up with a new marketing strategy. The storage units are free, but you have to sign up for a 36-month contract to monitor the contact on the door of each unit.

You sound a bit like the guy I work for... spent years doing alarms, got more into the CCTV end working for one or two larger outfits, and finally struck out on his own several years ago when the constant go-go-go to someone else's beat got too much for him. He's doing pretty well now (well, WE are, I should say), but he had to go through that same stage of taking on some of the "petty" jobs to help get a customer base going (although he did have the advantage of a lot of contacts from his previous positions).

It's really getting to the point now that we don't even bother with the smaller mom-and-pop businesses, and pretty much avoid residential at all costs... with surveillance systems, people see the spiffy little Costco systems they can get with a monitor/VCR combo and four B&W cameras for $250, and don't understand why they should pay us on the order of $250-$350 *per camera* (installation not included).

If a place REALLY wants a quote, one of us will go in, give it a quick look-over, tell them how many cameras they should have, and give them a rough number right there (use $500 installed per camera, makes the math easy, and add on the price of your DVR of choice). If they even blink at the number, or try to talk the price down, we'll just thank them for their time and walk out. They're welcome to go to Costco; we know chances are they'll be back when they discover it's just not sufficient (usually after the first time they try to look at footage of an incident). Of course, the price goes up significantly at that point, and as often as not, they're happy to pay it for something that WORKS.

Case in point: we just finished "upgrading" a gas station that we set up a year or so ago with a DVR, two indoor cameras, and prewire for cameras on four of six pumps (no, I have no idea why they didn't want to prewire to all six)... a friend/relative(??) of the owner owed him some money, so he offered to provide and install some cameras: super-cheap-ass B&W/IR bullet cams on four pumps, but only two of them the ones we prewired. The guy strung wires from my original drops on two pillars, surface-run across the canopy soffit to the outer trim, tucked under the trim to the far end of the canopy, and back across the surface to THOSE pillars. A piece of 3/4" PVC pipe down the pillar to get the wires to the cameras... cameras screwed into the steel posts with nylon inserts... WTF???

Needless to say, the cameras were virtually useless, between the non-adjustable too-tight view (looked like about 8-9mm on 1/3", although I expect the cameras were actually 1/4") and the fuzzy picture from the cheap CCDs and no doubt plastic lenses. We sold them three used 1/3" cameras in environmental housings for the pumps, a couple of 1.3MP IP cameras off the building for plate views, and a couple more 1/3" cameras in the store, including one to replace the "covert" PIR/pinhole cam the friend/relative put behind the paypoint - the camera only turned on when the *functioning* PIR sensed motion!

I spent two and a half days on the job, with the boss putting in a good half-a-day helping out, to redo all the canopy wiring (including replacing the solder-type BNCs that they used WITHOUT soldering to the RG-58(!!) cable they added). The part that REALLY pissed me off though, was that they used the original four RG-59 cables I had run between the back room where the pump wires came in, and the office, as a pullstring... to pull in four RG-58s, and four power wires so they could power all four pump cameras off a single wall-wart in the office (I'd left the pump-cam power runs terminated in the back room planning to power them from there).

Moral of the story: when he asked me why it was taking so long, I told the owner it was because of the nasty NASTY wiring his "friend" had done... all he could do was shake his head and respond, "Live and learn..."

Indeed.

strategy. The storage units are free, but you have to

Huh?

Have another Vicodin.

Just my take on the subject.....

Obvioulsy it's a lot easier to pass up an account when you've reached a certain point when the revenue is coming in along with the referrals. When you're first starting out you're a little more pressured to take what comes ..... when it comes.

Also, as I've mentioned before, I use my pricing to govern how much work I do. But again, this is a luxury provided by recurring revenue.

Until you reach that point where your RMR can support you and the overhead, it's a struggle.

strategy. The storage units are free, but you have to

Hahahaha, ADT Mini-Storage :)

Hmmm. Doug is the group archivist, Crash is the court jester, Mark is just Mark- annoyin, but we can't be wthout him.

Today's was $23. It looked real sweet - I hope we get the job.

I'm working on that for QB-online edition. I want to go quote, work order, invoice ... in the same software..and rebill for RMR in the same. I may need a CMS soulution like salesforce.com, I want it integrated and online.........

I know. Thanks, I need all the advice I can get.

That's true too. Everyone had one account once.

| > Hey...there's still a niche for the small guys. My average residential jobs | > have been running between 2500-6000 lately...so don't underbid and put a | > profit on everything. So I don't get every job I bid these days, but what | > the heck...if there's profit in it I don't have to rush and can take my time | > to design and install it with pride. Don't compete with the idiots...they | > eventually disappear from the phone book. | >

| | Just my take on the subject..... | | Obvioulsy it's a lot easier to pass up an account when you've reached | a certain point when the revenue is coming in along with the | referrals. When you're first starting out you're a little more | pressured to take what comes ..... when it comes. | | Also, as I've mentioned before, I use my pricing to govern how much | work I do. But again, this is a luxury provided by recurring revenue. | | Until you reach that point where your RMR can support you and the | overhead, it's a struggle. |

Tell him that his budget is realistic for DIY equipment. Offer to point him to a SAM'S Club or similar and let him know what he can get for that price. Remind him what the burglar can get for that price too. Tell him if he needs professional installation of professional gear that he will have to increase his budget. If he says to how much then do a normal quote and submit it. If he doesn't call back, then tell last choice security that you have a good lead for them that you're too busy to run and hand it to them. Then smile, you've done your good deed for the day.

That kinda describes me. My main beef with most companies I worked for was that they were selling "paper", not security. I also didn't like someone telling me how long my job was supposed to take - I'm sure you've ran into installs that are just plain shoddy. I like to take my time and do it right, something the paper sellers don't like (time is money).

I'm taking anything I can get right now, lol. It hasn't come up yet - but I will turn down a job if I get a bad feeling about it.

Those people who buy the Costco systems will eventually come around to something that works though. I've already ripped one out and replaced it with a real system.

Yup.

Man, what pain in the ass job that sounds like. Used all 4 of your 59 for pull strings huh, that's funny (I suspect you were not laughing though). Too bad the idiot couldn't operate a crimper.

I'm working on that, in the meantime I'm using the estimate feature of QB. I select the parts and input quantities and it adds up my cost for the stuff. Then I take the list over to a Word doc and do my markup in there.

That's a good chunk for resi jobs, you must be doing big ass houses. Thanks for your advice.