I have a customer that was renovating a 3 story apartment building. During the renovation it was found that kids were climbing up the fire escape ladder to the roof and having a party, not to mention the vandalism. So a decision was made to cut off the ladder at 112 feet above the ground to stop the action.
It was decided that when the renovations were complete they would install a different ladder that would be in a UP position but when needed would be lowered from the landing by the person in need of escape.
Well that time has come and when this was proposed to the City Fire Department the FD said they will not allow this because the person that is trying to escape may be afraid to use the ladder of this kind. And that the only thing they will approve is the original ladder bolted to the wall all the way to the ground.
Now I have been asked if I can come up with some way to stop or at least deter activity UP the ladder to the roof.
Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this kind of issue????
Foot switch on the third step up actuates 480 volts from left, isolated handrail to rest of ladder. Foot switch on 6th step shuts the voltage off for those coming down.
a motion light attached to a 115 db bell or horn set for 15 minutes should do the trick (preferably with a remote hookup bell at the local police and fire department, for those people unwilling to use a modern moving ladder system)
Then you'll have some moron decide he wants to "cheat" and winds up falling 10 feet onto his back. I don't think the motion sensor or beam arrangement will work either. Use a Sentrol pull-apart (or similar) switch. When the ladder's deployed it'll trip a supervisory zone on the fire (or burg) panel. You can get them with the appropriate end-of-line resistor installed so the circuit's supervised.
You are forgetting that the city is not allowing the droppable ladder. The ladder must be as the original and extend to the ground. I am looking for ideas on how to deter kids for using the ladder to go up.
This may take a whole lot of techno-nerdy to put something together. Of course the more simple the better.
Initially I was thinking about some kind of photo beam attached to the ladder at say about 8 feet that would kick off a loud siren for about 15 seconds and then stop. If it got tripped from someone coming down due to a fire then it is a minor issue.
The perfect solution would be to fight the Fire Inspector and get the collapsible ladder installed. Problem solved and go on with life.
How about a board with large nails through it rigged like in the movie "The Substitute". As they step onto the roof they get a nail in the forehead. :^)
First thought...Enclosure at bottom of ladder that has hardware allowing egress only. The enclosure would have to be designed to detour climbing as well. Sounds like over kill but depending on the cost of the vandalism it may pay in the long run. I don't think electronics is going to be the answer. It is a tough one.
We have had kids getting on the roof of our office building the same way. It is tough to detour them. They seem to find away around the measures that have been tried. The property has roof access ladders that don't start until eight feet off the ground and than have a mess cover that closes over the ladder another four feet up and locks. Doesn't stop them. I am waiting for the day they realize the value of the coils and lines in all the A/C units up there.
Yea it is a tough problem that is hard to fix. Locally two kids went onto the Amtrak rail yard and climbed up on the top of some of the cars. This simple flash of stupidity put them very close to the bare power cables that run the trains. One kid was electrocuted and burned very bad and is now a vegetable. The other was burned very bad trying to pull his stupid buddy away. The parents took Amtrak to court and won a multi-million dollar law suit stating that there was no signage indicating the potential danger. Only in America.
I'm presuming that most of the vandalism is at night but that some of it could be during daylight also.
A couple of very bright high intensity spotlights, at night, mounted at the top of the ladder looking down the ladder and a couple off to the side, lighting up the side of the building. Make them caged lights to reduce vandalizing. The bright lights at the top, that are looking straight down would make it difficult to climb up ( it's not easy to climb up a ladder if you can't see where you're going.) but would actually help someone who's climbing down.(use more than one light, for redundancy when bulbs burn out) If there's any objection to the lighting by the AHJ, you could control them with the FACP duing a fire.
In addition, two CCTV cameras (again, for redundancy) mounted high enough and far away enough from the ladders so they would be difficult to vandalize. Use the motion sensing feature. The motion sensing could be on sections of the ladder high enough off the ground so that it wouldn't pick up ground traffic but would pick up someone climbing up ...... say at about 15 feet and again say at about 30 feet (or whatever). The cameras would also serve the purpose of identifying the vandals. You could wire it so that both cameras would have to trip before an alarm would be sent ...... and if you really wanted to get fancy, you could set it up so that it would only trigger an alarm if the lower camera tripped first, followed by the second camera ....., within a certain period of time .... but not the other way around. You could add an audible warning when the first camera is tripped. Visonic has audio recording modules. You can record your own message.
If there is no local observer( guard, etc) then make it so that motion will send an E-mail/ Cellular alert or a message via voice dialer to the super of the building, or dial whoever .... or authorities via central station monitoring. Also I would invest in some warning sinage.
I could foresee some false alarm problems in inclement weather but you'd have to work around that procedurally.
Obviously, remote observation would be an option also. Depending on how much they're willing to spend, there are central stations that will monitor video. But to eliminate the higher central station fees, Napco has a Video Event recorder with remote capability for a very small monthly fee, that again, could be sent to the super's cell phone or computer ...... or whoever. and the video is stored on Napco's server which is remotely accessable.
Ironing out a few details with the owners and depending on how much they actually want to stop the vandalism ........ it just may do the job. Also, in the event that someone ever got hurt, a vandal or otherwise, this system would show that at least a best effort was made to thwart someone illegally using the ladder.
Ya know ........... the more I think about this, the more I think I'd suggest to your client that they petition the Fire Department to allow them to put in a drop ladder. See if you can get them "prove" that thousands of fire escape ladders throughout the country are unoperable by users. Maybe go to the state and see if you can get someone there to help you out. If you can find and push the right buttons, you can get a drop ladder installed and eliminate the long term maintinence for electronic equipment to monitor a stupid fire ladder. If there are other buildings in the town with the same problem, how are THEY handling it? Don't THEY get vandalized? Are there other buildings in the town with drop ladders? Maybe this is just a "grandfather" thing that's easier for the town bureaucrats to live with rather than (Oh my God) making a change! It just doesn't make sense that they''d insist on someone providing a ladder that for anyone to be able to climb up on top of a building and get them selves killed or cause damage or EVEN SET A FIRE!
I had a customer that was renovating a half a block of abandoned buildings in his town. He was quite a wealthy guy and wanted to revitalize the area where he'd grown up. At the time, no one could figure out why, but the building department put constant obsticles in his way from day one. Steel beams in wooden buildings, new supporting walls, new zoning restrictions regarding use of business property, no grandfathering even though the buildings had been there for decades, endless stupid stuff. He complied with whatever they wanted, even though it cost him lots more money. He had a fire sprinkler system installed and also a fire alarm. After everything was all closed up, they told him it wasn't the type of system they would approve of and he'd have to change it. ( I didn't do the fire system, but it was a multiplex systems, just being introduced at that time) My client called a state inspector to come down from the state capital and somehow they approved the system in some way that completely superceded the local authorities.
After that, the local bureaucracy really put the screws to him, but he finally discovered what the problem was. He had his suspicions from some remarks that had been made as some meetings, so he went to a meeting with a department head and took a concealed tape recorder with him. The guy made it quite clear that it was all because my client was Jewish. My client got his attorney involved and the recording was played for them ...... and guess what? No more trouble finishing the project and then afterwards he sued them. It was for millions but I lost track of what finally happened. I never saw anything in the Newspapers so maybe they settled quietly rather than cause a scandal in the town bureaucracy.
My client was one of the most unassuming and generous guys you'd ever want to meet. He was one of those quasi-mythical ( called eccentric) rich guys who'd rather walk or ride his bike then drive his 10 year old Subaru and walks around town in his farmer overalls, work boots, a flanel shit and a ski hat. He renovated part of the town because (in his words) he wanted to give back to the community that had helped him become wealthy) His renovations inspired other investors to do the same and the area has since come back and is a thiving business area now, after 25 years of deterioration.
Anyway ............ it just might pay to persue this ladder thing a little further than set up a perpetual monitoring expense that, you know ,is probably going to be forgotten about, the equipment or lighting will go out of repair and then someone gets hurt or serious vandalism occurs again.
Sorry I was out of town a few days and am not getting caught up
That was a good story Jim. I have already suggested to the owner that he pressure the city on the ladder issue. I think it is a little stupid they won't allow this since as I understand they have approved the same in other parts of town.
I won't know for a while if the wind will be blowing in a different directions any time soon.
Thanks to all for the thoughts and suggestions. All very helpful.
Les
Ya know ........... the more I think about this, the more I think I'd suggest to your client that they petition the Fire Department to allow them to put in a drop ladder. See if you can get them "prove" that thousands of fire escape ladders throughout the country are unoperable by users. Maybe go to the state and see if you can get someone there to help you out. If you can find and push the right buttons, you can get a drop ladder installed and eliminate the long term maintinence for electronic equipment to monitor a stupid fire ladder. If there are other buildings in the town with the same problem, how are THEY handling it? Don't THEY get vandalized? Are there other buildings in the town with drop ladders? Maybe this is just a "grandfather" thing that's easier for the town bureaucrats to live with rather than (Oh my God) making a change! It just doesn't make sense that they''d insist on someone providing a ladder that for anyone to be able to climb up on top of a building and get them selves killed or cause damage or EVEN SET A FIRE!
I had a customer that was renovating a half a block of abandoned buildings in his town. He was quite a wealthy guy and wanted to revitalize the area where he'd grown up. At the time, no one could figure out why, but the building department put constant obsticles in his way from day one. Steel beams in wooden buildings, new supporting walls, new zoning restrictions regarding use of business property, no grandfathering even though the buildings had been there for decades, endless stupid stuff. He complied with whatever they wanted, even though it cost him lots more money. He had a fire sprinkler system installed and also a fire alarm. After everything was all closed up, they told him it wasn't the type of system they would approve of and he'd have to change it. ( I didn't do the fire system, but it was a multiplex systems, just being introduced at that time) My client called a state inspector to come down from the state capital and somehow they approved the system in some way that completely superceded the local authorities.
After that, the local bureaucracy really put the screws to him, but he finally discovered what the problem was. He had his suspicions from some remarks that had been made as some meetings, so he went to a meeting with a department head and took a concealed tape recorder with him. The guy made it quite clear that it was all because my client was Jewish. My client got his attorney involved and the recording was played for them ...... and guess what? No more trouble finishing the project and then afterwards he sued them. It was for millions but I lost track of what finally happened. I never saw anything in the Newspapers so maybe they settled quietly rather than cause a scandal in the town bureaucracy.
My client was one of the most unassuming and generous guys you'd ever want to meet. He was one of those quasi-mythical ( called eccentric) rich guys who'd rather walk or ride his bike then drive his 10 year old Subaru and walks around town in his farmer overalls, work boots, a flanel shit and a ski hat. He renovated part of the town because (in his words) he wanted to give back to the community that had helped him become wealthy) His renovations inspired other investors to do the same and the area has since come back and is a thiving business area now, after 25 years of deterioration.
Anyway ............ it just might pay to persue this ladder thing a little further than set up a perpetual monitoring expense that, you know ,is probably going to be forgotten about, the equipment or lighting will go out of repair and then someone gets hurt or serious vandalism occurs again.
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