Is this a brownstone in Harlem between Adam Clayton Powell & Frederick Douglas? I'll have you admitted to Bellevue if you're chopping up one of those gorgeous homes doing your Charlie Bearie routine. Put the Mr. Wizard alarm kit away and PLEASE hire a company to install the system. Now if it's a Brooklyn brownstone I'll send you a pack of matches so you can burn it down, hopefully igniting the rest of Brooklyn in the process.
D> I just posted a reply to James Barnes in re "contact / electrical"
Whew! My thanks to everyone for your responses. Although I am suddenly hesitant in my expectation of some pretty strong, ehh...ribbing, I will try here to respond to the messages since my last posting.
The direction of the discussion here had already led me to the decision to rework my wiring in the panel closet as Ranger advises. Combined with Crash's specific suggestions concerning power supplies and my assumption that such supplies have the terminals for 4-wire devices such as the smokes, I think I have a reasonable idea as to how to begin.
I had read the manual several times which originally led me to the loop extender in order to maintain independent zones for each item since the Vista 50P could provide only eight zones in this design. My life experience that manuals frequently leave out important information either as too basic or irrelevant appears, however, to have led me down a garden path in re the 4297. This is where the folks here can groan or laugh, cry or....
The 4-wire devices, including smokes, wired to the 4208U expansion modules have the data pair connected to the individual zone data terminals. But then, the power pair from ALL such devices are together wired to the expansion module's power terminals. This is to say that the terminals which supply power to the expansion module are "tapped" (if I can say it this way) by the smokes et cetera. So, yes, I have connected the 4-wire smokes to the polling loop but only (?) the data pair.
I know it is a joke, but no one here has sold me anything nor did I have contact with anyone in this group prior to completion (ahem) of my installation.
Yes, I got it that contact and relay ratings are not the draw and that waterflow, heats, and contacts do not draw at all.
My google on Altronics led me to an Australian computer power supply company. I will seek out the Brooklyn concern. IIRC?
Although I understand what is meant when I am corrected, a google on the term "DC transformer" turns up some interesting though irrelevant information.
Thanks again to all.
Crash Gord> I have this discussion with a friend of mine at least 1x a month. Oye. >
Don.... I think the reference should be to Altronix....
Hey TF, You stole that from JM and RP! LOL Mike
Everywhere Man wrote:
The Altronix site is really organized well.
Thank you, Doug L and Coord.
I figured you'd get a kick out of that, Mike. Funny wondering how many thought it was a typo :-)
Mike Sokoly wrote:
Don, you seem like a nice enough guy, so don't take this the wrong way...
Step away from the alarm panel. You're in over your head. In the relatively few messages you've posted here, we've uncovered some significant problems, and it appears that you lack the training and experience necessary to deal with them. You have a moderately large system, and while it would not tax the abilities of a professional, he might need to sit down with some scratch paper for a few minutes to work things out correctly.
I am concerned about the other problems that are probably lurking in your system, the ones you haven't discovered yet.
I completely agree with you that Ademco writes crappy manuals. As an example, if you look in the Vista-50P installation manual index under "smoke detector," there is ...NO ENTRY! So, you have my sympathy on this point.
Now, about the 4297 loop extender. I am afraid you don't understand the purpose of this device, or how to wire it up. This product is primarily intended to allow for very long wire runs for the "polling loop" that comes off the control panel, wire runs of over 600 feet as I recall. It's an amplifier, and as such, it needs a source of power. Ademco provided the AC and battery terminals on the module as a way of supplying that power, on the assumption that the module may be a long way from the control panel's auxiliary power terminals. It was never intended as a way to supply power to other devices.
If you read the instructions, you will see that you are not supposed to use it for fire alarm service. I don't know how you planned to reset the smoke detectors you are powering off the 4297 terminals. In short, you don't even need the 4297; it serves no useful purpose. The 4208 zone expanders connect directly to the control panel using four wires, see the instruction sheet.
- badenov
AHH but they call it an Xformer not a Transformer...
big difference! :)
The heat detectors dont draw any current. So yes you can ignore them for your calculations. You will still need a power supply to support everything you have listed. The only thing you hook to the polling loop of the panel is the 4208 expanders. The polling loop does not supply power, that is what the aux power is for. The aux power will support around 700ma which still leaves you about 1.6 amps short for your aux devices. You will need a power supply for those devices.
The siren output is rated at 1.7amps this is usually only good for 2 1amp sirens. Do you need 5 of them? If so you will need to power these from a seperate power supply. I would not use the polling loop extender unless your expanders "4208" are more then 600 feet from your main control. By hooking the extender up to a transformer it prevents it from pulling any current from the main panel but it is only capable of supplying an additional 128ma to any devices. Your smoke detectors pull 300ma which is double the extender can support. The smoke detectors should be ran to a power supply or the control. I would recomend using the aux on the control for your smoke detectors. This way if your power supply fails your smokes will still be operational. You will also need a way to reset the smoke detecotors by either a button on the can or a 4204 relay module. I would also wire at least 1 keypad to the main panel. In case of power supply failure you will be able to operate "disarm" the alarm with this keypad. There is a diagram in the install manual showing you how to wire an aux power supply, you should be able to follow that. Good luck with your project.
James
But what does that have to do with your 20 BBB complaints?
Bass Home Electronics 4883 Fallcrest Cir Sarasota, FL 34233 Telephone: (941) 925-9747 Fax: (941) 925-9747
See the BBB report on line before you purchase from this vendor.
There is a lot more to consider than just a low price when shopping on the internet. Don't become the next victim. SEE THE REPORT BELOW
You're gonna power your smokes from the panel's power, not the separate power supply - or however the panel's instructions say to power them (I don't use polling detectors, so I can't tell ya for sure)
IIRC= If I remember Correctly
| >
| > | > >Right now most of the expanders get their power from the loop extender | > | > >which, in turn, gets its power via a DC transformer just as the panel | > | > >does. | > | >
| > | >
| > | > There is no such thing as a DC transformer. | > | >
| > | >
| > | > -- | > | >
| > | > -Graham | > | | > | Jake thought otherwise | > | | > | | > | | |
Bass learned how to kkep his mouth shut after the Battery Diode Harness Story shown below For more great Goofy Bass, Larry Roberts, Scud, BoBo, Pinky stories visit
REPOSTED FOR THOSE WHO REQUESTED IT: This is the guy ROBERT L. (Lunatic) Goofy Bass that his Clones think he is so knowledgeable about alarms.
*******************************************************************************Battery Diode Story
Bass Was Totally Wrong - This was taken right from
I think you've got this one wrong, friend. Napco provided a Battery Diode > > >
when > > > > I installed their add-on power supply. In fact, it's still listed on the > > > > ADI server as a valid part, although AFAIK Napco has stopped producing them. > > > > > > > > If you make current flow in the wrong direction on a battery charging > > > > circuit you'll have a lot more than a dead battery to worry about. To test > > > > your theory take a discharged battery and connect its terminals to another, > > > > fully charged battery with the terminals reversed (so you can get current to > > > > "flow back into the dead battery"). All kidding aside, don't really try > > > > this. The results can include fire and explosion, depending on the type of > > > > battery and its condition. > > > > > > > > BTW, the charging circuits on many alarms are actually 13.8VDC -- not 12 > > > > Volts. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > >
Robert L Bass > > > > > > > > =============================> > > > > Bass Home Electronics > > > > The Online DIY Alarm Store > > > >
Sales & Tech Support > > > > 941-925-9747 Fax > > > > snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net >
This is the CORRECT answer Again taken from
optional PS3000 power supply, but do need to supervise for AC > > > brownout. This module connects the PS3000 jack to the AUX relay, which > > > is triggered upon brownout. > > > > > > Secondly, the Dual Battery Harness, to which I believe you were > > > referring in your post, does not have a diode in it at all, it simply > > > parallels the battery leads to allow the connection of
2 or more > > > batteries to the MA3000, or any other panel. > > > > > > I do not think UL would require a diode in the battery harness that > > > would waste a valuable 0.7 VDC in a low battery condition just to > > > protect against the installer reversing the battery leads > > > accidentally. There is already a thermal circuit breaker on the board > > > for this type of protection. > > > >two directions, you will soon have a very dead battery. > > > > > > Best Regards, Oleg
HERE NORMAN PROVES GOOFY ASS WRONG ALSO
Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Better not use a diode to isolate the two batteries. Remember, current has > > > > > to flow both directions on a battery lead: into the battery when it's > > > > > charging, and out of the battery when it's discharging. So if you orient > > > > > the anode towards the charging terminal and the cathode towards the > > > > > battery, the battery will charge but will not be able to deliver power to > > > > > the system when the AC is off. If you orient the diode the other > > > > > direction, the battery will not charge. > > > > > > > > > > Diodes also have a 0.6 volt drop across them, so if you charge a battery > > > > > through a diode, you are not getting the full charging voltage. > > > > > > > > > > Use a fuse or circuit breaker instead, preferably the harness provided by > > > > > the panel manufacturer.
SO those who want to take Goofy Bass's advise because you think he knows every thing -THINK TWICE.
Cabling-Design.com Forums website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.