Re: Ademco 50P - Unable To Disarm

Actually I think it's more practical to do the calcs on paper with in-alarm ma ratings of all devices.

I always did my battery calcs as follows:

1. Add up mA ratings of all devices that will be operational during an alarm condition. Deduct the drain for 1/4 hour of alarm sounding from the available Amp-Hours.
2. Add up mA ratings of only those devices which run when the system is not in an alarm state. Divide into the remaining AmpHours.

By calculating the current drawn in an alarm state first you allow the system to run 24 hours (72 hours for some facilities) and still have enough juice to sound the alarm for fifteen minutes.

I don't recall if that's actually required but it's the way I learned to do it. I never had a submittal turned down for battery calcs so I guess the inspectors like it that way. I've tried a few Excel battery calc spreadsheets over the years and though they're quicker than using a hand calculator they tend to be cumbersome and none of them cover all of the different types of hardware you might use on any given job.

I have my own spreadsheet calculator with all the models of equipment I use already in it...just a matter of ticking off boxes. But, since I don't do commercial fire anymore I only use it for really big resi jobs. If you've been doing this junk for a few thousand years, you kinda just "know" when you're getting close to the limit for the brands of equipment you use...time to pull out hte spreadsheet:-)

| Bass Home Electronics | 4883 Fallcrest Circle | Sarasota · Florida · 34233 | 941-866-1100 Sales & Tech Support |

| =============================>

| | |

We aren't talking "battery calcs", and your method doesn't address the issue (which is the maximum allowable current draw from the auxiliary power supply). You can have correctly sized batteries for the application but can still exceed the maximum allowable current draw. It leaves little doubt in my mind that many of the installations you've involved yourself with are compromised using the method you're advocating here. The OP provides us another classic reason why any DIY'er should employ a local industry professional to check his work before powering up the system. Spending "two hours on the phone teaching someone how to install an alarm system" just doesn't cut it. One small comfort, he will have the right size battery for the job though (that's *if* your supplier ships the correct unit).

Frank Olson

Exactly. Commercial fire was never our main emphasis though we did plenty of commercial fire alarm installations. On simple jobs with a few smokes, pulls and strobes I could rough-guess the battery power needed but the inspector would want to see the calculations so I usually used the one in the manual or a standard form I printed on my laser.

On residential burglar alarm and home automation installations battery calcs are almost never needed. The typical job is fine with one 12 Volt, 7 AmpHour battery. If there are CO detectors on the job though, I always did the battery calculation because most of the older CO detectors drew loads of current.

Battery and aux power calculations are great when you're designing a system, because it means the installer goes out to the job with the right equipment. And of course, they're essential for commercial fire systems.

But when you have a system that is already installed, why calculate when you can measure? Want to know how much current your system draws while on batteries? Connect your meter in series with a battery lead and disconnect the AC. You'll know exactly, to a couple of decimal places, instead of having an estimate.

- badenov

Well, sure that's true too, but may be more diff. for a diy...easier to look up all the spec sheets.

Household crises kept me from following up immediately.

I took the easiest/quickest way for me to do the ballpark by calculating the max system alarm draw from each device's spec sheet. The total is either 9039.8 mA or 5039.8 mA.

The difference arises from whether I add or subtract the draw of the internal alarms. The four are Ademco Wave 2F. The spec sheet SEEMS to say -500mA.If this can really be negative, the total draw is the smaller figure.

Another thing is my assumption that 1 Amp is 1000 mA.

Another assumption is that every glass break in the building would go off at the same time. There actually are three max to a floor for six floors.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, each item is its own zone in the star topology.Eight of the smokes are connected directly to the Vista

50P. The remaining eight smokes, two COs and three heats go through two 4208 expansion modules to the panel. All contacts and breaks go through another five 4208s to a loop extender which connects to the panel.

The building renovation is incomplete so several items included in the computed draw, above, are not yet mounted though they are wired for. (5 sirens, 1 strobe, 3 breaks, 4 smokes, 1 heat).

As to auxiliary power, I guess not really. Certainly not enough in light of these figures. The only auxiliary power is the transformer for the loop extender.

BTW, I misstated in an earlier post. All seven keypads are 6160s.

I will go to my local system parts supplier and find out whether they have AlarmSaf and/or Altronics power supplies with relay outputs for supervision.

Any further advice or suggestions especially in advance of this purchase and installation is appreciated.

Thanks.

Crash Gord> Well, sure that's true too, but may be more diff. for a diy...easier to look

Actually, two 12v 7ah batteries are wired to the panel. One 12v 8ah battery is wired to the extender.

Don

yep 1000ma is 1 amp If the siren is -500ma then you have a miracle siren, it's a typo should be

500 ma expansion modules and keypads count too. strobes draw a lot you're way over

no not everything will go into alarm at the same time

| >

| >

My 9039.8 mA total includes the expansion modules, loop extender and keypads. The only things excluded are the contacts which I assume have no draw.

Thanks.

Crash Gord> yep 1000ma is 1 amp

Contacts don't draw anything.

You must have made an addition error...9039 ma would be 9 amps, something should be smelling funny by now even in at idle that'd be somewhere around

4-5 amps ?!

| > no not everything will go into alarm at the same time |

...and with two 12v 7amphour batteries in parallel you'd have only an hour or two standby time. Was this a diy job? What kind of building did you say it was? If this is a commercial building dunno how you passed fire inspection either.

|| >

|| >

I agree. He also keeps talking about this "loop extender" that has a plug-in transformer and its own battery, only he says he doesn't have any auxiliary power supply. So I have no clue what he's talking about, but nine amps out of a Vista-50 just ain't happening.

And I think Don said earlier he's a DIYer; maybe I'm mistaken.

We've already lost some of the head-end of this thread so it's hard to remember.

If it's really got that kind of draw on it, it's no wonder it couldn't be disarmed.

Yes, I am a DIYer. Renovation is almost complete on my two-family home. The walls are closed. I have used the star topology. Each contact and break is its own zone.

I DO have auxiliary power but in light of the calculation I believe the power I have is insufficient. I used the "worst case" philosophy meaning the system is in alarm and all devices are active. I took the current draw for each item from its specification sheet. It is very possible I have misunderstood something in the spec sheets and/or the suggestions made in this list. I might have also made an arithmetic mistake in the calculation.

Smoke...........ESL: 541NB......20.0 mA...x15...300.0 mA

Heat...Chemetronics: 601.........1.0 A....x2...2000.0 mA

Heat........Edwards: 280.........1.0 A....x1...1000.0 mA

CO..............ESL: 240-COe....75.0 mA...x2....150.0 mA

Glass........Acuity: AC-100.....35.0 mA...x18...630.0 mA

Siren...........ELK: ELK-150RT...1.2 A....x1...1200.0 mA

Siren........Ademco: Wave 2F...500.0 mA...x4...2000.0 mA

Strobe..........ELK: SL1.......140.0 mA...x1....140.0 mA

Keypad.......Ademco: 6160......150.0 mA...x7...1050.0 mA

Extender.....Ademco: 4297......350.0 mA...x1....350.0 mA

Expansion....Ademco: 4208U.......28.0 mA...x2....56.0 mA

Expansion....Ademco: 4208U......27.3 mA...x6....163.8 mA

Total..........................................9039.8 mA

Although included in the computation above, the strobe, sirens, 4 smokes, 3 breaks, 1 heat and 1 CO are not connected. Their wiring is in place.

In addition to the devices above, a Central Sprinkler Company Riser Manifold is installed but not connected. Its Potter Waterflow switch seems to draw 2.5A @ 30VDC. I assume this will require an independent power supply.

The AlarmSaf site lists only 4 12/24VDC power supplies that provide total current in excess of 9039.8 mA: Models 00866, 00867, 01367, and

01363. The site lists 5 "2.5 - 10 AMP Power Limited" power supplies. The max total current among these is 4A.

Should I be looking at "Battery Capacity" rather than "Total Current"?

All corrections and suggestions as to power supply, configuration and everything else in regard to this system are greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Crash Gord> We've already lost some of the head-end of this thread so it's hard to > remember.

Some of those items you have listed the "contact rating" this is not the current draw but it is the amount of current that can go through it without burning it up. Dont add those numbers in.

James

Lol! I didn't know those heats drew that much current!

Someone needs to walk away and find someone who knows what they are doing :)

Dood..heats don't draw anything neither does the waterflow switch.

Is this that NY brownstone renovation discussed a while back?

15 smokes? Man!...I do 7-10000 sq ft houses that don't have that many in them...anyway...

adjusting for some of your errors, you're probably really closer to 2.7 in alarm without the sirens, but then again not everything will be in alarm. I'd probably go 2 amp aux power...but remember some of this stuff you cannot power off an aux power supply, like the smokes, the expanders, the keypads - so you'll have to split your load between panel & secondary pwr supply...and you'll need to common your gnds too.

You really should have an alarm tech help you with this now that you have it roughed-in.

BTW...I rent myself out at 125 p/h...travel & food extra.

| > If it's really got that kind of draw on it, it's no wonder it couldn't be | > disarmed. | >

| >

| >

| >