Wireless from house to detached garage

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:21:14 -0500, "Peter Pan" wrote in :

Being childish and nasty doesn't make your case any more persuasive -- just the opposite.

Nowhere on either the website or in the documentation does Linksys claim compliance with 802.11n. "Wireless-N" can and does mean "draft N", especially since N is still in draft.

I simply referred to the data sheet, which is much more clear and authoritative than marketing fluff on the website, and the data sheet states:"(draft 802.11n)" the very first time the marketing name "Wireless-N" is mentioned.

Just regular ole 2 x 6 and siding, nothing metallic or fancy. I talked to the Verizon folks yesterday and I think that I may just have them (or my electrician) bury a conduit for the cable TV service and when they do that I'll have them throw an ethernet cable in there as well, that way the garage will actually be hardwired w/the internet. Might just be easier that way.

this is where I get lost, if I hardwire the garage, how does a wireless AP then broadcast my Verizon internet service? Do I just plug it into the jack and set it up to broadcast?

OK, back to the main house, I'm still trying to decipher how I'm supposed to connect if I am trying to boost the signal w/in the house (not having any luck w/the parabolic reflector, I don't think my skills were up to par when making it, I'm going to try it w/a manilla envelope, I originally used the cardboard that makes up the external portion of the packaging for a linksys router, it's not corrugated, but maybe too thick to work?)

The equipment I have now includes the Verizon ActionTec router, a Linksys Wireless Router as well as a Linksys Wireless Access Point. I think the Linksys WAP will only play nice w/the linksys router and not directly w/the Verizon ActionTec router.

If I hook up the linksys router to the verizon router I see two wireless networks, then if I hook the WAP into the linksys router I see three networks. This is where my ignorance of how this stuff works shines. If I use the WAP to repeat the Verizon broadcast am I then supposed to pick the linksys WAP from my available networks to connect to instead of the Verizon router directly?

There is something to be said for hardwired networks, lol. Thanks.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:54:09 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net wrote in :

You could also just use the TV coax. See coax networking in the Wiki below.

The wired service in the garage is just hung off a router, access point, hub, or switch just like your wired connections in the main house. Nothing else changes.

The reflector has to be metal. Otherwise get a high-gain antenna with an appropriate pattern.

Pretty much any wireless router can be used as a wireless access point

-- see How To in the Wiki below.

Any wireless access point should work on any Ethernet network.

You don't want more than one router (and DHCP server)! Since you are using a Verizon router, configure any wireless router as a wireless access point.

snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net wrote:

Depends what you are planning on doing in the house.. In the house we had one wap/router so we had both wired and wireless, on one subnet, and the wan input from sat/dsl/cable/fios/etc pugged into that, and in the outbuilding/garage, we had a second one (so we had both wired and wireless out there), and we ran a direct burial 20 pair utility cable (500 ft $116, let us have things like phone, intercom/etc) along with a cable for tv (dish sat in our case), in the outbuilding ... At the outbuilding end we had another wap/router (different subnet, plugged into a lan port/not the wan, let us use the internet but not share files - same subnet lets you share files too)... When we designed/installed stuff we didn't care what provided the internet (good thing since things kept changing), ie we worried about our stuff, rather than making it work with whatever was provided by the provider, no matter who provides what, they (almost) all have an ethernet jack that you just plug into your indoor wap/router... We took the tack of not caring how it got there (the internet), and just worried about what to do with it once it was there... As an aside, when we had DSL, the DSL modem died, and was replaced, but with a different model that worked differently (old wired only, new had both wired and wireless - that of course was on the same channel and conflicted with channel 6 ((default is 6, 1 or 11 is a bit safer))).. Point from above, don't give a dang about the verizon wireless network signal (may not be there in the future, ours with fios got co-opted for the voip stuff)...

As for multiple networks, are you talking about ssid's or subnet? (know those 4 numbers seperated by periods in an ip address? usually the third number indicates which subnet, most default to 192.168.1.1, just pick a third number to be yours and pretty much no matter what input is provided it won't conflict like make the starting ip address something like

192.168.2.100 ((course murphys law says whatever number you pick, somebody else will use that same number :)).....

Bottom line, I would suggest you make your wireless network your own and design something that will work for you, and not care about what specific equipment the provider has at the moment, which unfotunately can change, or someone may set their own up that conflicts with yours... or what the neighbors have in your neighborhood.....

Did you skip step five "Glue tin foil to the back side of the reflector surface"? I used a glue stick and aluminum foil, which I pressed and smoothed to be pretty flat and bump free.

In this photo of my Windsurfer, you can't see the aluminum foil on the back side. The strong signal is headed just past my left ear as I'm taking the picture.

How are you checking for improvement? If you have Netstumbler, the difference between reflector and no reflector should be obvious, but only if you have some signal, marginal signal, without the reflector. If the signal is too strong without the reflector, Netstumbler might not show any improvement when you add a reflector. If you have no signal, the boost from the reflector might not be enough to be of help. The reflector is on a router that is 50-60 feet away, through two outside walls.

No, I did that step, lol, I'm not that naive ;-) I used netstumbler on my Windows PC at work and noticed about a 10 pt increase, but that was just a test since the whole thing has to do w/the house. At the house I put the reflector on the verizon router antenna and didn't get any noticeable gain at all, this was using a program similar to netstumbler on my Mac laptop.

One note, I did have to use a bit tape to hold the tabs through the back of the reflector, would that screw it up?

help.http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/windsurfer-dining.JPGThe reflector is

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:15:19 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net wrote in :

Then something was wrong, or the program is brain-dead, because the 10 dBi boost from a good reflector makes a *big* difference, well over twice the range.

No.

Just checkin' ;-)

I noticed that Netstumbler has a max signal, beyond which there is no more viewable improvement. I was testing some antennas from my kitchen, and I was disappointed in the improvement, sometimes none at all. I also couldn't figure out which direction was the peak signal. Then I moved my test setup out to the barn, and I could see the differences.

Nope. That's fine. My guess would be that you just aren't at a spot with the laptop where you can actually see the improvement in signal. Try moving farther away, to a point where you can detect the signal getting very weak without the reflector. Another possibility is that the router has two antennas. Is there a signal strength adjustment in this router? There is in some 2wire brand routers.

Just out of curiosity, did you ever check the verizon modem at home? Some come with wireless actually turned off, is there any wirless signal from it at all? Also, is it a mimo thing? mimo wireless someimes doesn't work/play very well with reflectors.. fot a non mimo, does it have two antennas? Oddly enuf, sometimes only 1 is used at a time, maybe you have the reflector on the one that isn't being used/?

IMO, you'll be better off if you could run Ethernet wire through your house as much as reasonably possible. It will probably involve some sweat now in your attic (or basement, etc), but it is a secure connection and is the closest to foolproof of any alternatives to manage and troubleshoot. With Cat 5e or 6, you'll be able to run Gigabit Ethernet, which you'll eventually want, to have fast PC-PC transfers, a home Server or NAS, to stream media, etc...plus it keeps your wireless traffic minimized. FWIW, you can find decent Gigabit switches for under $50 already.

For your garage connection, the best option is always hardwired. If you're going to pay a contractor to run a conduit, throw *2* Ethernet in it today, plus have room for future "what ifs" and a strong nylon/ poly cord for pulling future cable through.

In the meantime to shoot over wireless, you can sort out a 'best location' from within the house, plug into your hardwired Ethernet and use a wireless router-set-to-switch, and just set up to run a new wireless zone. This way, you don't mess with the existing wireless and this hardware is currently cheaper to buy than a wireless repeater. Spend some time picking which brand/model of 'wireless router' you're going to buy, because if it doesn't have enough signal strength out-of-the-box, before mucking with a DIY reflector, I'd just spend $25 and toss on a better antenna. For example, D-Link currently has an omnidirectional 7dB gain antenna on sale for $17 (after $20 rebate) through Amazon. FWIW, don't forget attic spaces if you have power up there already: a flat gable could be a nice spot as it can't hold an external snow load.

Personally, I'm still avoiding signal-over-power systems as I discovered a few years ago (with the home automation stuff) that I'm one of the lucky ones whose wiring systems requires all sorts of expensive filters and cross-overs to get it to work reliably. For a good time, pick up one of the *complete* installer catalogs for that stuff and read about all sorts of exotic widgets that they have, beyond just the run-of-the-mill stuff.

-hh

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:47:35 -0800 (PST), -hh wrote in :

That's ancient X10. The new stuff is way better.

OK. I would keep at the reflector for a bit, just to master it, may serve you here or there.

But, as suggested, get yourself a pair of powerline networking units.

Connect one to a LAN port of your verizon router and plug into wall.

Plug in second at other end of house. Connect it to LAN port on linksys router.

Change channel of router to different from verizon.

Connect desktop directly to router on another lan port.

See if you get a decent signal in garage. If not, try reflector.

If no joy still, then once a cable is installed in ground, connect it to fourth lan port on linksys router and then put WAP on garage end of cable.

Set WAP to a different channel and voila! Three wireless networks in your house, depending on where you are.

Two will probably be enough if your garage is close to the linksys router and desktop.

Cheers, Steve

As a general rule of thumb, the stuff all (even the old X10) works fine so long as you're on the same circuit leg, no dirty power, and homogeneous wiring technology.

But as soon as you cross circuit legs, cross phase, get dirty (particularly from electrical motors) or have new/old wire types (including copper/aluminum) which affects impedance, you no longer have an ideal host with which to support the piggybacking of a signal.

And in any case, the current stuff is pretty darn expensive, given that if it "works as advertised", it is only roughly 100bT. Granted, that's better than wireless, but it is sill an order of magnitude below what can be done wired at a comparable (or lower) cost, and a generic single family home shouldn't be a huge challenge, as wired ethernet can be placed essentially anywhere where an Electrician can be paid to add an outlet on a new circuit.

Sure, if nothing else works, then try EOP, but I'd make sure you buy it from a vendor with a good return policy. I see that in reading Amazon customer reviews on the Netgear stuff that ~25% of them weren't really happy with the product.

-hh

Are you aware that there have been various standards and implementations of power over ethernet? You might just be blaming the whole approach for a single model's implemenatation of the poorer standard. It's wise to investigate which standard is working best (in your desired speed range) before buying.

I bet that it wasn't the Netgear XE103 system that gave you trouble.

Take a look on Amazon or NewEgg to see how many people are pleased and amazed at the simplicity of their plug and play - ability. And of the few whom that product didn't work for were , probably they were using surge protector power strips or isolated circuits.

As for cheap external antennas, the "spend and use - no assembly required" is appealing, but all the ones I've seen come with thin cables that absorb most of the gain the antenna offers. Their real advantage is not the falsely stated gain, but that they allow you to get the antenna better placed.

If the placement is already good and you want true gain, then a reflector can deliver. It's hard to get 10db gain for under $40.

I totally agree that nothing beats an ethernet cable for dependability. But powerline is closest!

Steve

The Netgear EOPs I've bought had rave reviews by most with a few totally negatives with zero info thrown in. Not your typical informed bad reviews of devices, but flip stuff Like: "didn't work for me" Period.

Considering my own excellent experience, I figure they had it plugged into a surge suppressor or something like that. There are a lot of clueless people out there !

cheers, Steve

I see that in reading

4.5 stars out of 5 on Amazon. Not many products do better than that.

Yes, and are you aware that I've already said: "...the stuff all...works fine so long as you're on the same circuit leg, no dirty power, and homogeneous wiring technology." ?

My point here isn't that EOP is not a potentially viable "80% Solution".

Instead, my point is that when you're part of the unlucky 10% (or whatever), EOP is not necessarily trivial to troubleshoot what's preventing it from working for that particular instance. As I already mentioned, the potential problem sources can include:

"...cross circuit legs, cross phase, get dirty (particularly from electrical motors) or have new/old wire types (including copper/ aluminum) which affects impedance, you no longer have an ideal host with which to support the piggybacking of a signal."

It depends on what one want from one's network. For example, my networks are set up so that they doesn't immediately crash the moment that I lose grid power.

Now I'm not personally aware of any EOP implimentations that continue to provide signal after the host power has been cut, but if there are any, please let me know who makes it.

-hh

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:26:21 -0800 (PST), -hh wrote in :

Enough already! Power over Ethernet (PoE) and Ethernet over Power (EoP) are TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS!

Yes, totally true John.

Fortunately, Steve had also just mentioned in this thread that he has some Netgear EOPs, so despite his minor PoE typing error, it was understood that he was nevertheless talking about EOP implementations.

-hh