Firewolf 4-wire Napco 816 gives E41

Hi all. I have a Napco 816 with a Firewolf 4-wire smoke. It has an EOL on it and it lights up fine, green lights blink, etc. The keypad gives me an E41 error on that zone, however. It's set as a standard Fire zone... any ideas? Thanks!

Reply to
Total nerd
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If the Smoke detector isn't tripped... then it sounds like you may have an open circuit between the smoke and the panel.......... Or the Zone 7 & 8 connections aren't correct on the panel circuit board......... Regards, Russ

Reply to
Russell Brill

If the 4-wire smoke is on zone 7 or 8 make sure that the jumper is set to "BURG" and not "2-WF". If that's ok check for an open circuit between the panel and the detector. Note that multiple smoke detectors on a single zone are wired in parallel -- not in series like burglary sensors. If you wire two or more smokes in series you'll get a trouble condition unless all smokes are simultaneously triggered.

If there's only one smoke, make sure the EOL resistor is across the "extra" zone terminals on the smoke. Technically, you're supposed to use an EOL supervisory relay after the smoke but very few installers actually use them. Check those things first. If you still can't get it squared away give me a call. I'll walk you through diagnosing it.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

The guys I work with always use the relays with four wire smokes. We wouldn't consider not doing so.

The only thing worse than not having smoke detectors, is having smoke detectors that don't work and you don't konw it.

Reply to
JoeRaisin

Just in case these are the only fire protection in the residence (I'm assuming it's a residence).

Please don't allow anyone you care about to spend even one night in a house without adequate fire protection.

Some poor decisions can be fixed, some cannot.

Reply to
JoeRaisin

I guess you're one of "the few installers" that (sic) "actually use them". I'm pretty sure Robert worked with a "few installers" that didn't. In my experience those are "few" indeed. Seeing some idiot installer "wannabee" mail order parts pusher write crap like this just makes me glad he's no longer installing or running his "modestly successful central station alarm company" (if he ever did either).

Reply to
Frank Olson

Agreed. It's always best to use them. However, over many years doing service and takeovers of systems installed by independants and borg dealers alike, I've rarely found an EOL relay on a residential job.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Thanks for your reply... I have the EOL as shown in the installation manual. The detector is actually on zone 3 and that zone is marked as a Fire zone in the windows loader software. Should I only use zone 7 or 8 for this, even though it's a 4-fire? Speaking of correct installations, all I do to verify that a firewolf smoke detector is working is to hold a magnet to the Test spot. The panel goes off with a fire alarm and the Firewolf shows red LEDs instead of green. That's typically what I do to my own system... I haven't tried that in this installation obviously because I'm getting this E41 error. This is a normally open fire detector, right? Does anything special have to be done about that? Maybe I should just move it to zone 7. thanks.

Reply to
Total nerd
7 or 8

yes smokes are open devices

if they're 4wire make sure you do the supervision relay correctly

Reply to
Crash Gordon

after all its not rocket science, any primate can doit with help from u know who.

Reply to
Mark

Not quite *any* primate. Neither you nor the other professional primate noted that the gentleman can use any zone on the P816 for a

4-wire smoke detector.
Reply to
Robert L Bass

"The gentleman" also has the manual (and the Quickloader software). As an educated (i.e. literate) primate, he should be able to read that for himself.

Reply to
Frank Olson

Hmmm, someone here is quick to correct others... I always use zone 8 as a smoke zone because + Fire Power is right next to it, then the - Fire Power wire is the only wild one traveling to the other side of the circuit board... It's a neatness thing, I just assumed (whoops) the OP had done the same... What led me to that assumption, the OP stated, "I have a Napco 816 with a Firewolf 4-wire smoke. It has an EOL on it and it lights up fine, green lights blink, etc. The keypad gives me an E41 error on that zone, however. It's set as a standard Fire zone".... His statement led me to believe he had checked the two wires at the panel that are used for smoke zone trigger by reading the resister installed at the smoke head with a Meter... Which made me think he had NOT properly terminated zone 8 on the circuit board. If someone is unfamiliar with Napco, that could easily happen... He also stated, "It's set to a standard fire zone". Zone 7 & 8 can either be a Standard Fire Zones, or Two-Wire Fire Zones used with Two-Wire Smoke Detectors.... Again, I might be misunderstanding his statements, but I believe a reasonable person can see why I would do that... Maybe because I've actually installed GEM P816's....... Enough said....

Russ

Reply to
Russell Brill

that's because I don't give advice to diyers.

Reply to
Mark

Woah, there is certainly some hostility here, maybe I should just slowly back away. Anyhoo, yes I connected it to zone 3 because as the manual states I should be able to use any zone as a fire zone. I will move it to 7 or

8 and check it there. I didn't think to close zone 7 or 8 with a resistor since they are open and unused/unprogrammed zones in area 1. I know, I know, y'all are gonna tell me that many "pro" guys close open zones with an EOL resistor while I just remove it from the programming, my bad. On that note, every "pro" installation I've ever seen places the EOL resistors inside the panel, so now we're even...!
Reply to
Total nerd

Some may for burg zones but certainly not for a fire zone.

Reply to
Crash Gordon

Total nerd wrote in news:1188821285.585600.170450 @r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

I don't think it's directed towards you. read a few back posts. you'll get the idea of who is the brunt of the hostility.

Reply to
Tommy

So do I for the same reason. However, it was wrong to state that only zone 7 or 8 are for fire alarm. In fact, if the need ever arose you could use every zone on the panel as a smoke zone.

That's a reasonable assumption. However, the question was raised as to which zones could be used for smoke. The correct answer is any zone or zones -- not 7 or 8.

Agreed. That is what the gentleman said.

Unfortunately, that is not a reasonable assumption. It may be correct, but IME it's best to ask if he checked the resistance. I usually just mention to my DIY clients that the appropriate resistor for a 4-wire smoke on a Napco system is 2.2K, which has 3 red bands. All too often I receive calls from folks trying to diagnose a system which someone else (a porofessional) has installed and learn that they don't own a meter. I usually suggest a quick trip to RatShak for a meter. They sell for as little as $15 or $20 and most DIYers don't need anything fancy. It's also common to find DIYers and professional primates alike who are not familiar with the resistor color code. You've been in the trade long enough to have seen the same thing, I assume. Whoops :)

That is true, especially if using zones 7 or 8 since Napco arranges them differently from the first six zones. When I first saw that many years ago even I thought it strange. They do so, as I'm sure you know, to facilitate use of the switched fire power terminal. I always remind DIY clients of this if they're using Napco. It helps avoid confusion.

So yes, we agree that it was possible the gentleman miswired the zone. I only corrected the other two primates because of Leuck's primate comment.

I must be a reasonable primate since I agree with you. However, it wasn't your comment that led to this discussion. The OP asked, "Should I only use zone

7 or 8 for this, even though it's a 4-fire?"

CG replied to that query, "7 or 8." That was incorrect. Leuck chimed in with the primate comment. I thought it funny since neither he nor CG realized they were wrong. It's no big deal, really. Anywhere except ASA it would have been ignored. :^)

Not quite. I've also "actually installed" Gemini P816 systems. However, I prefer their larger cousins, the P3200 and P9600. The wiring is pretty much the same but the larger panels allowed us to wire each door, window, motion and glass break sensor to a separate zone. I always offered full perimeter protection which made it easier to win while bidding against lower primates. It's easier to maintain a system with each sensor wired separately so I've sold far more P3200 and P9600 systems, both DIY and professionally installed.

BTW, I still find it funny that some folks get bent out of shape because some years ago I said that any primate can learn to install an alarm. At the time one of the idiots said he was insulted that I considered him a primate. No one else even noticed how stupid that was. I guess none of the professional primates got past high school freshman biology. :^)

Reply to
Robert L Bass

Oh, yes, but it has nothing to do with you. This goes back many years ago when I first started talking about DIY in this newsgroup. Some of the others got PO'd because they regard DIY as an intrusion into *their* newsgroup. They actually thought they could vote to keep me from posting stuff they don't like. There's a fundamental lack of understanding of Usenet, not to mention common decency, here.

There is no need to move the 4-wire smokes to zone 7 or 8. You were correct in the first place. Any zone on the P816 can handle 4-wire smokes. Only 2-wire smokes are limited to zones 7 or 8.

Bingo! If you have not programmed unused zones out of the system or shunted them with an appropriate resistor you can get a fire trouble signal. Just make sure both jumpers are set to "BURG" and place 2.2K Ohm resistors across the terminals. The panel should be OK after you power it up. Yin and Yan will be in balance and the universe will be at peace once again.

Not at all. Many professionals just program unused zones out of the system. You can do it iether way. If you want the zone to be completely ignored, go to the "Zone Feature View" screen in the Quickloadr program by clicking the button that looks like a window and door near the top left corner of the window. In the row called "Zone Area 1" click the 7th and/or 8th column and hit the space bar to toggle the "Y" to a dot. Download the program and the system will no longer see the affected zones.

You are correct of course. Far more installers wrongly place the EOL resistors inside the panel than those who do it right. This stuff isn't rocket science, is it?

Reply to
Robert L Bass

You're way too busy being a jerk to help anyone.

Reply to
Robert L Bass

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