I have a 120v AC fire alarm system in my home that is currently wired independently from my 12vdc Napco security alarm system. Like most hard-wired fire alarm systems, when one head trips, all of the heads also alert as well, so their is a common connection between them all.
My security panel is a Napco 3200. Does anyone know of a way, or a device I could use to interface the systems together, so that a fire alarm could trip a zone on the security system? So far I haven't been able to find such a device on the web. (although Elk makes a device that does the opposite....i.e. causes security alarm to trip a 120v device) I'm trying to avoid rewiring the fire system and replacing the heads, as it is not currently wired in series, and would be very labor intensive... Any suggestions? Kevin
It's a bad idea. Your local fire authority would likely not allow it. There's not much of anything on the market that will allow you to do it and meet electrical code anyway. And even if you do find away around the code, it's not a proven reliable and acceptable way to do it.
Briefly, you're not supposed to intermingle 120vac with low voltage devices and on a practical note, if there were no power during a fire your AC smoke detectors possibly wouldn't have battery backup or insufficient backup or unknown (ie un-monitorable) battery backup.
The following may vary from area to area but usually AC smoke detectors are required by the local building code and installed by electricians. System (low voltage) smoke detectors are sometimes installed in their place with an alarm system, but not usually. As long as that local building code is met, anything else that you add is at your descretion. Minimum UL recommendations are one system smoke detector on each level of the residence. Additional detection is up to you. Don't try to save money when it comes to fire detection.
It's like trying to work on old plumbing. Don't even try to fix it. You may as well start from scratch because you know it's going to wind up that way anyway. Except with plumbing, if you try to "fix" it ,you only wind up with a leak. Fire is an altogether different matter. Do it the right way first.
My advice would be to cap off the AC in the boxes and wire up DC smokes. If you can't run wire between the detectors (often difficult if the house is finished), go with wireless units (either in place of the old AC ones, or mounted beside them). Make sure you have sounders on all levels of the house (with the latter suggestion) as there's no direct interconnection between wireless sensors. There is nothing in NFPA that states you can't interconnect an AC smoke alarm with your security panel. I would be concerned with the fact that most smoke alarms go through a "self check" when they first power up, so that you might wind up with a false alarm every time AC power is restored. After about three such nuisance alarms, most fire departments start charging. In Burnaby (BC) it's $500.00 after the third false alarm.
This topic was discussed extensively in this newsgroup some time back. There is a relay which works with some 110VAC smoke alarms and some people believe it is OK to connect it to a low voltage alarm system such as your Napco Gemini P3200. Unless it is UL-listed for use with a fire alarm system, I wouldn't use it.
You might consider simply adding a few low voltage smoke detectors to the P3200. These would run independently of your 110-VAC smokes. You don't need a full complement -- perhaps two or three unless it's a very large home. System Sensor makes a model 2W-B two wire smoke which is listed for use with the Napco P3200. If wiring is really going to be a bear, consider adding a couple of Napco GEM-SMOKE wireless smoke detectors. Again, this is in addition to your "regular" smoke system.
The reason I say you don't need lots of system detectors is (and this is an assumption) you already have enough to wake you up and save your life. The system detectors' only purpose is to trigger a report so the FD can respond if a fire breaks out while you're away.
That will work but I know at least one inspector who won't allow it. :(
Anything you use with a fire alarm system must be listed for the purpose. Be careful. Better yet, ask your local AHJ. The law pretty much is what he says it is.
Actually, properly installed, a system detector beats a hard-wired
120VAC one hands down. It's actually a true life safety device because it's supervised by your alarm system. Some even signal a "trouble" when they get dirty or lose sensitivity. We replaced all our 110VAC smokes. When we built our house, I terminated loops of low voltage wire just outside the octagon box the electrician wired up for the 110VAC smokes. When all the inspections were done, we capped off the AC, pulled the wires into the box, and mounted 12VDC supervised smokes. I sleep a lot better at night.
Agreed. Not relevant to the OP, but I wonder if any of these new features are starting to show up on newer model 110VAC detectors. I rarely get calls for those so I don't keep abreast of them as much as system sensors.
I'd hesitate to recommend flying under the AHJ's radar that way (inverted or otherwise)... :^)
In this area, noiwdays, the new homes have 120VAC units that beep when AC is lost and they beep when their standby batteries get low. So I think that qualifies them for being supervised. When they get dirty, they trip and although it may be kind of drastic to be woken up in the middle of the night because a unit is dirty, there aren't an signals to central so ...... But anyway, at least you know that you've got a problem.
I don't know if that's allowed or not. Just because a 120VAC wire is capped but it's in the same box as an active low voltage circuit, I don't know if just capping the 120VAC would get it by an inspection or not. I kinda think not. It would seem as if you'd have to disconnect the line down at the main and blatantly lable it so that someone didn't inadvertently connect it in the future ....... and there's probably some inspectors that wouldn't even allow that.
Secondly, why *wouldn't* you want both types of dectectors in your home? They detect two different kinds of fire and the ionization can, in some instances, give an earlier warning than a smoke detector. Since they're already there and working, why wouldn't you want to have the advantage of having both ionization and smoke detectors? If you sleep a lot better with just smoke detectors, you'd likely be comatose with both.
When I'm asked if I want to put in system smokes in place of the electricians smokes, to meet building code, I always tell them to go ahead and put the station detectors and I'll follow up with the system devices. The way I look at it is, the station smokes are there and working whether the home owner does anything or not. If the whole house is wired with system detectors, someday he or some future owner may let the alarm system fall into disrepair and then the house will be with no fire detection at all and the building department will be none the wiser. Certainly the station detectors can fall into disrepair also, but an alarm system has monitoring and maintenence cost that the station detectors don't have, which makes it more likely to be abandoned by a non-security and safety minded homeowner. For that reason I feel that the station detectors are more likely to endure for a longer period.
That argument has been made many times over. Most smoke alarms these days have an LED that either stays on "solid" or "blinks" during normal operation. I figure anyone that sees a detector (whether it's 12 or
120VAC) would know if it had power. If it didn't, pulling it down would reveal the capped off wires, and the interconnection to the security system. It wouldn't take a "rocket scientist" to figure out what was going on.
As for Robert's comment about "flying under the radar" of the AHJ, it's been my experience that they never come back once the final's done, unless additional work is required. And unless that work involved the smoke alarms, they wouldn't bother pulling one down to have a look at it. Besides, the supervised smokes are considered an improvement over the 110VAC ones.
Even if you call them to report a problem they rarely respond after all the paper's stamped.
And a home security system is not a "listed fire alarm panel", nor is it installed as a "listed fire alarm system". Most home security panels are wired with 22/4 Station Z wire for the keypad runs. A home security panel wired this way would *never* be a fire alarm system. We can argue semantics all day long. NFPA does state you can interface a 110VAC smoke alarm with a security alarm system as long as you use a relay compatible with the smoke alarm. Most AHJ's I work with would not have a problem as long as a physical separation in the box ensured you couldn't accidentally cross-connect the AC with the low voltage side.
You and I work in different countries so this may account for the difference of opinion. I can't speak with authority regarding Canadian regulations. However, in the US if you want to use a home burglar alarm for fire as well it had better be listed. The standard is UL985 "Standard for Household Fire Warning System Units." Have a look at listed residential burg/fire panels and you'll find the UL985 sticker among others.
The standard "delineates all the electrical features, operation, safety functions and other requirements needed to meet the residential rules in NFPA
When UL evaluates these units, all of the panel's devices and accessories are assembled according to the installation instructions the manufacturer submits with the panel." -- from directorym.net
The point is that in order to comply with the standard all components of the system must be UL listed for the specific purpose in which they will be used. Unless the referenced relay has been listed as compliant with UL985 for use with the particular houshold alarm control, it should not be used as part of your home fire alarm system. Adding other features, such as burglary detection, does nothing to obviate UL985 requirements.
For burglar alarm circuits, that's usually fine. But if you add smokes, wire them with cable listed for use in power limited fire alarm circuits. In the US, when you add fire protection to a burglar alarm system, you must do so in accordance with standards for a household fire alarm system. Failing to use the right wire doesn't make it OK to also use the wrong hardware.
In the US it would be an improperly installed residential fire alarm system. That's why most jurisdictions have code enforcement people.
You seem to be saying that if a home fire warning system is wired wrong it's not a fire alarm system. I'm sorry but to me that doesn't make sense. It's like saying because a boat doesn't have required life jackets it's not a boat. Try explaining that to the marine patrol.
Not exactly. UL says what can and cannot be connectred to a listed control panel. NFPA relies on the UL listing to define what complies and what doesn't. The relay may be listed for use with the 110VAC detectors but it also needs to be listed for use with the alarm control panel. I've read the specs on a couple of these relays and none were UL985 listed.
Since I'm not in Canada I'll take your word for that. In the US I've worked with scores of AHJ's and they run the gamut from laissez faire to autocratic martinets. But that's really not the crux of tyhe issue IMO. The question isn't about what one person or another might get away with but about what is lawful (or at least code compliant).
On to another subject... Neither of us has addressed the question of efficacy of these devices. You've previously mentioned some of their drawbacks. Perhaps you'd like to reiterate those concerns for the benefit of the OP.
Believe it or not, Sonitrash used to do something even worse. They would install one of their listen-in mics near the fire horn on a protected premises. In one place I know of when they didn't hear the horn sounding they ignored a waterflow alarm over the course of an entire weekend. By Monday morning the 100,000+ sf Goodyear tire distribution facility in South Windsor, CT, was flooded about a foot deep.
BTW, the reason that Sonitrash didn't hear the horn? Sonitrash's technicians had been servicing the alarm the previous week and they disconnected the horn. They also hit the Trouble Silence and left it that way for days on end.
I was thinking about this statement, Frank, and I recalled an online site for electrical inspectors,
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There's an online magazine there that often has articles which are helpful to tradesmen and homeowners as well as inspectors. In the current edition I found the following which seems pewrfectly timed for the current discussion.
The writer is more concerned with commercial fire alarms but much of what he says is equally applicable to residential jobs.
"What makes a reliable fire alarm system?
There are four elements that help ensure a fire alarm system will operate properly when needed. The acronym EDIT will help one remember the components.
Proper and Listed Equipment. Is the equipment approved by the authority having jurisdiction? Is the equipment listed for use in a commercial fire alarm system? a residential fire alarm system? outdoors? hazard occupancy, including explosion proof? and the like? Many times contractors will install equipment not listed for the use intended. This is where the product specification sheets supplied with the shop drawings and available on site are compared to the actual product installed.
Proper Design. Did the designer consider the building occupancy and construction for the proper type of system? During the rough wire inspection one may find back boxes installed on the walls and ceiling in a swimming pool room. Are these for smoke detectors, heat detectors, or horn/strobes? If they are, then it is important to ensure these devices are listed for humid environments. Locations of horn/strobes shall provide the proper coverage per NFPA 72.
Proper Installation. How was the installation performed? In the above scenario does the conduit installed in these areas meet Article 348-10, as well as other articles related to damp areas? Article 760 specifically addresses the installation of fire alarm systems. Other articles, including
250 and several 300 series articles, are specifically referenced.
Proper Testing and Inspection. Is an inspection and testing contract in place before the witnessed acceptance test? Was the system tested according to chapter 7 of NFPA 72? These issues become more important as one's knowledge base and responsibility change. Proper witness acceptance testing of a fire alarm system is a whole other topic and is beyond the scope of this article."
So. Some of the panels I've worked on have "Mickey Mouse" stickers on them. Are you saying that Disney approves them as well?
I prefer the UL site myself, and I'll also point out that you seem to be contradicting some earlier "advice" you gave here too.
UL 985 references the common control, not the peripheral devices.
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You're confusing the entire issue in a vain attempt to try and prove yourself "right". I'm sorry to say that you're wrong. On *all* fronts.
From the standard (UL-985):
"1.1 These requirements cover household fire warning system control units intended to be installed in accordance with the National Fire Alarm Code, ANSI/NFPA 72, and the National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70."
"1.5 These requirements do not cover single- or multiple-station fire alarm devices, automatic fire detectors, or alarm indicating appliances, such as bells, horns, and the like. They do cover accessories which are external to the control unit and are dependent upon the control unit function, such as end-of-line devices, annunciators, and remote switches."
No relay, smoke alarm, or other peripheral device is listed as being "in compliance with UL 985. UL 985 covers "household fire warning system control units" and that's all.
So what you're saying is that every system out there (wired as a home security system) would have to be *rewired* if the customer decided to add smoke alarms... Yeah... right... Like that's gonna happen.
Most of the "code enforcement people" wouldn't know what a homeowner does or doesn't do with their home security system (and could care less). They're out "enforcing" bigger fish.
Nope. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a home security system is not a "fire alarm system". Most home security systems wouldn't comply with the requirements of a "fire alarm system". Heck... you advocate wiring keypads with 22/4. C'mon Robert... Are you saying you tell every customer that buys product from you that the minute they include a smoke alarm, they have a "fire alarm system" and have to wire it as such???
Pish-posh. You can hook up any listed four wire smoke to a "listed control panel". It's only the smokes that derive power *from* the
*initiating* circuit that have to be "listed" with that panel.
Heh... I doubt you'll find a single peripheral device out there that's "UL985 listed". If you do, please post the relevant information.
Most AHJ's defer to NFPA and NEC. NFPA states that it's perfectly acceptable to connect a 110 VAC smoke alarm to a home security system so long as the relay used is compatible with the smoke alarm and will not prevent it from sounding all the smoke alarms in the system. I could quote chapter and verse... awww... heck... here it is:
"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."
AHJ's don't "argue" with the code. They enforce it. There isn't a single AHJ who would "spin" any other interpretation of this section of NFPA in your favour, Robert. Sorry.
It depends. Do they have the official Mickey stamp or just the logo?
Perhaps the chemo is kicking in.
You know full well I'm always right, with or without proof.
That is correct. Those devices are not intended to be connected to a listed alarm control panel. Thank you for proving my point.
Relays like the ones being discussed would fall into this category. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Perhaps this is where our disagreement on this subject arises. UL985 covers not only the control units but all peripherals, including, but not limited to notification appliances, initiating devices, etc.
Nope. The burglar alarm circuits could stand as they are (assuming they weren't wired in such a manner as to create a risk of disabling the whole shebang. But if you add smoke detection, wire the smokes according to the applicable standards. You *might* need to rewire the horns. That's a gray area the installer should take up with the local AHJ. I've heard different opinions from different AHJ's on the subject.
Most of the time the dealer fails to pull a permit so the AHJ isn't aware. But that doesn't make it OK to ignore code any more than it's OK to drive drunk when there's no cop around. Someone's life may be endangered either way.
If it includes smoke detectors it's a home fire alarm system. How can you not agree on this much?
That just means they've been done wrong. If you build a passenger vehicle with 4 wheels, an engine and steering wheel but no lights and no brakes and drive it on US highways you'll get a fat ticket. Try explaining to the officer that it's not a motor vehicle because it doesn't have required equipment so it's not subject to the law.
If the system includes fire, check with the AHJ about keypad and siren wiring. Some don't care but some want it done "according to Hoyle."
We're digressing a bit. Back to the subject at hand, the question is should he wire 110VAC smokes to a household firte alarm system. The answer is, if the devices used to accomplish the task are listed for this purpose, yes. If not, no.
Pish-posh yourself (whatever that is). UL says you can do it so go ahead.
If you can find a 4-wire, 12/24 VDC operated smoke detector that is not listed for the purpose, that device can not legally be connected to a household fire alarm system in the US. 2-Wire smokes are listed for use with specific panels. 4-Wire smokes are listed for use with all listed panels but they are still listed.
You'll find peripheral devices listed for use with an FACP and others not listed for the purpose. Use those which are listed gfor the purpose. Don't use the others.
Actually, code defers to the AHJ. Remember those infamous words, "...shall be subject to the discretion of the Authority Having Jurisdiction."
It also states that the devices must be listed for the purpose. Code also permits you to connect heat detectors to a fire alarm circuit. Try connecting an HVAC thermostat to the circuit and see if you get a Certificate of Occupancy.
They also interpret it.
You're trying to make this personal. That won't fly.
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