Suggestions for X10/Automation Widgets

There are plenty of add-on outlet covering boxes out there. Clear or opaque, single, double, horizontal or vertical hinged, easy opening or secured. They're the 'right way' to put something into an exterior outlet but have it reasonably protected from the elements. Bearing in mind, of course, that not all devices operate well at all temperatures. Cold plays havoc on things with relays. Heat's the death of most IC-based devices. It's extremely tough making a device that would work in outside environments at a price point most people would be willing to pay.

Which won't work long-term because of humidity and condensation issues. Not to mention fire hazard.

For control, wireless is nowhere near as reliable as wired-line. For something involving considerable risk, like HVAC, I'd be incredibly wary of a control that wasn't wired. Wireless is just too prone to interference (accidental or otherwise). For lighting it's usually an acceptable risk. But for controlling the furnace, no thanks. Having it run too often wastes money, having it not running risks freezing pipes.

That said, a couple of wireless sensors feeding back to something intelligent in wired connection to the furnace would be interesting. If a sensor goes on the fritz and reports a value dramatically different than others the controller would have to be smart enough to recognize what NOT to do about it.

Automating HVAC is a lot less trivial than it seems. Properly handling pressure, avoiding condensation, on/off cycling, the list goes on.

I saw that Dave, But, having wrestled with the main cables in my own panel to install the whole house blocker (with inspector approval), I can't see adding these sensors in that panel. There simply is no way to make the connection. A sensor that could be attached to the side of an insulated input cable IS feasible, and might even be accepted by an inspector. But, there is the calibration issue I mentioned earlier.

Maybe something like this could be considered by a company like Square DO that makes breaker panels for high-end customers.

There certainly are people who need to sense when their electronic widgets are powered, like for toggle on/off devices. These sensors would be perfect for a little plug-in current-sense module.

Jeff

environments

What you say about temperature is true. Most consumers won't pay for reliability, and then they bitch about it when they get what they pay for.

The bag and tape was a couple week solution that performed the task well. This time of year many people use automation for Christmas lights. I certainly don't offer it as a permanent solution.

Having designed controlers for industrial and aerospace applications for 30 years, I am pretty comfortable controlling a furnace. You are correct that it is more than just on/off. And one would certainly need a hardwire link to the HVAC system. But distributed wireless sensors would save a lot of work I pulled a lot of wire installing our 8-zone system. A smart thermostat replacement with additional wireless sensor inputs is what I have been considering. The big question is could it be made cheap enough to be attractive.

Jeff

Square D or Cutler-Hammer Eaton was making panels with integral current sensors (hard wired output) but I think they've discontinued them. Probably not a big enough market to keep them interested but maybe big enough for a small DIY type approach. But, you're probably right that without a UL sticker it would be a tough sell to the typical inspector.

Seas>> The smallest Allegro current sensor is 5A. The largest is 200A. >

Very good point.

Not to mention electrocution hazards. The X-10 stuff is not designed for outside use and baggies aren't an acceptable compromise. Besides, baggies don't do much to protect the modules from the cold, and lots of X-10 gear starts to fail when the devices get cold enough. Get an inline appliance module and install it INSIDE the house on the branch that feeds the outside outlet.

Absolutely. There are an incredible number of potential "gotchas" in dealing with automating HVAC. Some of them are deadly. Short-cycling a furnace can cause an exchanger to burn through prematurely, releasing carbon monoxide into the living areas instead of sending it up the flue.

-- Bobby G.

Some people are paranoid about that. I did almost get electricuted as a kid from a frayed wire inside a metal floor lamp and grounded ham equipment. I know first hand the danger. But I'm not paranoid. I've worked with electronics all my life. Keep it dry and there is no problem. We also wrapped the inline electrical connections for floodlights in plastic to keep them dry. Outdoor sockets are GFI protected, and they will let you know if there is any problem. Again, they are Christmas lights, not a perminant connection. I can recall no problems with the X10 modules, but the cold doesn't really settle into New England until after Christmas.

Short cycling is a concern for both furnaces and compressors. Also exhaust temperatures should be monitored to protect against overheating, condensation and freeze up. But it isn't rocket science. Actually, our furnace pretty much takes care of itself with built-in sequence timers, and is designed to interface with a dumb thermostat.

Jeff

Hmm.. My Leviton catalog (old.. I need a new one) shows the 6375 as a 5A unit, and the 6376 as 300w. The website shows the 6375 as 15A, but there still appears to be no hardwired 220v solution. 20A or 30A capacity would be nice.

I was thinking of something that would mount in a standard 1 or 2 gang box, possibly even with a heatsink protruding.

Something along the lines of a 6291 or 6371, but without the local switch, or like a 6296 or 6298 with feedthru, and without the outlet.

I'd also like to see something like the 6376, but with a 500-600w rating.

The ELK 9100 is a 240V hardwired module that can switch up to 30A. But it is not designed to fit inside a junction box. The Leviton 6298 is a Decora outlet that can switch 240V at 20A. Both of these are pretty expensive - probably due to the low demand.

There would be problems developing a dimmer module that can handle that much current because of the amount of heat that has to be radiated. Most electrical boxes today are plastic, and I don't think they can handle that kind of internal heat load.

Jeff

There are a couple of inline 230V appliance modules available in Europe.

The ELK 9100 is a 240V hardwired module that can switch up to 30A. But it

There are even more than that.. look at the DIN rail stuff.. I keep forgetting about DIN rail, but I like the style.. too bad they are all 230v/50hz..

One problem.. 50hz vs 60hz..

6298 dosen't list as having a feedthru capability.. just an outlet.

I actually wasn't asking about dimmer modules.. Leviton has the 6290, which is a 2000w unit, that mounts in a 8x10 electrical box.

X-No-archive: yes On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:08:52 GMT, "Jeff Volp" used recycled pixels to say:

How about incorporating security into X-10? Not house security but command security.... have the modules only respond to your commands and not your neighbors!

One example: My X-10 is set to "128", when my neighbor turns on "A-1", my "A-1" ignores the request, when I turn on "A-1", I send a "128" first, then "A-1" "A-on" then module responds. If it see a "A-1" "A-OFF" it will ignore it because 128 did not preceed the command?

Or something along those lines?! THEN I would be glad to turn my X-10 stuff back on and start using it again! Until then, the market is TOO saturated with X-10 stuff. Just check my neighborhood, turn on "A-1" and about 3 other houses light up along with yours!!!

------------------------------------------------ Autobot This Spammers!

mailto:postmaster@127.0.0.1 (to reply to actual address, dispense the dots before and after sirname.

It might be possible to do something like that using perhaps a two character housecode and a custom module. A "high security" module would respond to X-A-1-ON, but not just A-1-ON (where X is a housecode other than A in this example). Modules so modified would have to be controled by high-end controllers that have the ability to transmit multiple housecodes. I recall someone developed a PIC version of a X10 module, and this may be something that could be incorporated into that design.

You can probably solve your problem much more simply by just changing your housecode. If you still have problems, try the whole-house blocker.

I was just looking for a few needs that could be met within the existing protocol. Some good suggestions have been received here and by e-mail. Dave Houston's CM15A conversion looks very useful. One that I still like myself is a souped up TW523 that could drive both phases so no repeater or coupler is necessary. There seem to be a fair amount of interest in wireless temperature monitoring. And there were a bunch of other individual suggestions.

I plan to start working on some of these as the new year rolls around.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread.

Jeff

Jeff,

There was an article in Nuts & Volts in September 2001 titled "Build the X-Lock" by Jeff Mazur that was along the lines of what The Alien is suggesting. It listened to the powerline and, when it heard an alien X-10 command, jammed it by corrupting the signal. It used a COP8FLASH µC.

The approach has the advantage that it works without modifying any existing modules. It has the disadvantage that it will cause an eternal duel for control of the powerline should the controller (or repeater) sending the signal be one that senses collisions and automatically retransmits. ACT controllers, RR501s, Ocelots, some coupler/repeaters and others automatically resend after collisions.

For The Alien,

"Jeff Volp" and "The Alien" wrote about using a special transceiver to parse security codes:

Isn't that what you are doing, building the better mousetrap? :-)

RF Dude's request is very similar to something I would love to see (and that I believe can even be implemented using an Ocelot controller). It would be great to have even a simple TM751-like device that could parse a 3 "frame" RF command string so that [6] [ENTER] + [12] [ENTER] + [ON] entered together gets output to the powerline as F12 ON.

You could even have it simply look for 0612 entered within a pre-defined time frame by assuming all house/unit codes would be of the form "HHUU" - there are a number of shorthand ways to do this.

(I believe this is what X-10 Wizard Dr Ed Cheung does at his house, or something quite like it. At least that's where *I* first so the idea and thought it was brilliant - if it's someone else's baby, apologies beforehand). It's ingenious because it means no more little code wheels, coins, paper clips or screwdrivers to tweak Palmpads to a different housecode.

One powerful RF transceiver and a smart translator could do an awful lot with something like the standard X-10 series learning remotes. It would be great if there was a socketed or easily flashable transceiver that could "learn" the necessary instructions.

I've often wished there was an easier way to change a UR24's X-10 housecode other than X-10, SETUP, HOUSECODE, ENTER, particular to temporarily control another housecode. It's too easy to forget to change it back with sometimes very awkward results! There really aren't many RF X-10 units that can change housecodes easily. At least I don't know of any. Maybe someone else does. I'd buy at least two.

I was under the impression that had been tried and rejected. Whole-house blocking isn't going to do much to block stray RF commands from his neighbors controllers. That's a whole 'nother nightmare and what makes RF Dude's concept so interesting. He's adding a security preamble to the X-10 command that locks out the neighbors RF. Add that to the whole house blocker and RF Dude might be back in the X-10 business. It seems the X-10 RF is great over those vast empty spaces between houses but not so good when you're actually *inside* a house.

Gawd am I glad I have such low tech neighbors.

-- Bobby G.

It sounded like RF Dude wanted to convert everything to a high security system. This would mean modifying all existing hardware, which is beyond anything I was invisioning. If a PIC version of a module already existed, changing that source code to add a security mode should not be difficult. After I sent the message last night, it became obvious it wasn't as simple as I first thought. Addresses are transmitted as a code-number pair. Some of my macros already send a sequence of pairs to get the attention of several different modules before sending the ON or OFF. But maybe a little used command can be used as the preface.

I use a window technique in the Ocelot to access the sprinkler system from a palmpad that normally just controls the lights. That end is easy. The difficult part is sending a secure command over the powerline to existing modules.

A macro in a HA controller can do the translation to a different housecode for you. It can recognize a sequence in a time window as a trigger for any other event. That event can be to translate the received command to a different housecode. For example, 3-1-ON would turn on housecode C module

1; 5-3-ON would turn on housecode E module 3. More digits could be used for security.

His mention of A1 led me to believe he might still be set to the default housecode that many people use.

The modified CM15A is exactly the framework to implement a security RF link. So we may be able to develop something like that in the future.

Fortunately, many of the "hi tech" neighbors are still on housecode A.

Jeff

This is difficult unless you institute rolling codes.

Even systems like Z-Wave and Insteon which only act on signals from "trusted" sources are easily defeated by recording and playing back the RF signal. Their schemes prevent accidental intrusion but not deliberate intrusion. Insteon can use rolling codes and they suggest that approach for situations that require security.

Hi Dave,

I wasn't thinking anything that complicated. I believe the original poster was looking for a system where his "housecode" would be different from others on the street. I do not see a way to do that without modifying the receiving modules. The easy solution is a whole-house blocker.

Another poster commented on stray RF commands from neighbors. Here is where the CM15A can help without getting too complicated. I'm not suggesting security at the level of entry systems. Just a 2 or 3 code press within a time window to enable relaying a received RF command to the powerline. The goal is to prevent neighbors stray commands from controlling his X10 modules.

Jeff

Two codes would be sufficient to prevent accidental codes. But, there are still some difficulties.

The HR12A sends 5-6 copies of a code and each one takes ~105ms so this adds

1/2 second or so delay.

With universal remotes sending to unit codes > 9 is not very straightforward.

It would be easy to implement with an RF capable programmable remote (e.g. Pronto TSU3000) but that involves additional hardware to receive 418MHz.