I recently built an inground/outdoor covered pool which I intend to operate year-round in a fairly cold climate (Pennsylvania). The pool has both an electric heat pump and a natural gas heater.
I would like to automate the operation of the pool's heating system so that the automated system can:
(1) Change valves between the heat pump and natural gas heater depending on outside temperature (2) Operate the heat pump whenever it is warm outside in order to efficiently store energy in the pool (3) Operate the natural gas heater only when the pool water falls below a given threshold (4) Log data regarding how many hours per day the heat pump and gas heater operate (5) Let me control/monitor the system via an Internet link
Any suggestions regarding what system might accomplish this? I am particularly interested in a system which can be fairly sophisticated in terms of the algorithm I may use to decide which heat source is operational and for how long.
Intermatic makes communicating (i.e., controllable) swimming pool automation systems. They use Z-Wave which is a popular automation communications protocol. The controllers can select and operate the appropriate pumps, heaters, etc., based on temperature conditions, least cost (time of day), etc. They can also be operated by comprehensive HA systems such as ELK-M1G, Homeseer, etc.
Another posted suggested you provide more information on the systems you plan to implement. He's right, of course. In order to specify an appropriate controller we'd need a little more information. However, you can find information on ELK Products and Intermatic at the manufacturers' websites here:
Intermatic:
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HomeSeer:
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Elk Products:
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There are numerous other manufacturers with their own solutions. Each has supporters and detractors. Arguments over which is the better HA protocol tend to take on religious fervor at times. I mention the above as a place to start your research -- not as though it's the only approach I might consider. Since I'm an ELK Products dealer and since I also sell Z-Wave products, naturally I have a slight bias in favor of them. However, I've chosen them because I believe in them. I'm installing an ELK-M1G system in my own home and I plan to use it to control my swimming pool and spa, among other things. Though the pool is probably smaller than yours, it's still large enough that I need to optimize the controls. We have a solar heating system but I plan to add an electric or propane auxiliary heater for those frigid days of winter when the temperature drops below 60ºF in Sarasota. :^)
Hayward heaters have, among other things, an on/off/on rocker switxh which allows you to manually switch between pool, spa or none. Talk to the contractor or retailer if you're installing the Hayward yourself to see if you can't parallel this with relay outputs from your own controller. If you do it this way, provide a second switch or relay that will interrupt control from your HA system in the event the HA is down. That way the system will run stand alone while you're working on the HA system.
Some of these can be triggered with a contact closure. If you can get the make/model that would help. Upgrading to digital might be a waste if you plan to operate the system using an HA system which will provide all the necessary logic.
Yep. Also, make sure the pump will run continuously during sub-freezing temperatures in case the heating systems ever fail.
Have you looked into an auxiliary solar heater? While Pennsylvania gets less sun than Florida it may still more than pay for itself, especially with rising fuel/electricity charges.
Again, this is trivial to control with almost any HA system. I don't want to sound like a broken record about ELK Products, but their ELK-M1G system has an advantage over several other popular lines. Any of the inputs can be analog, allowing the system to read temperatures from remote probes to make comparison-based choices as to which heaters, pumps, valves, etc., should be on. Our pool & spa automation system currently uses solar but I plan to add either an electric or gas heater for winter (when temperatures drop below
Yes, the Hayward heater does have a digital interface with these controls as you mentioned.
Can you suggest finding someone to help selecting/specifying components to achieve this? I am very knowledgable about engineering/electronics/networking but I have very little pool-specific knowledge. I have lots of confidence in my pool contractor but he has not done any HA projects in the past and I really doubt there are any other contractors with that experience in my area. What I want to try to avoid is self-selecting components and then not having thought of some pool-specific issues such as you mentioned here.
Free free to reply to me via email if that is easier. Does your company only do installations or do you sell components as well?
It is an SX5HP - See here:
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Maybe this is a dumb question - but why? Wouldn't I wind up lowering the pool water temperature in that case and making the problem worse?
On the other hand, another concern I do have is what happens if the valves fail and I am stuck with say the inflow going into my gas heater but the outflow coming from the heat pump. Might that result in a high pressure situation on the inflow side and burst the plumbing? What sort of high-pressure fail-safe can I install which works either electronically or mechanically?
It is a good idea but the pool has a northern exposure with lots of shade from a 3.5 story house - solar effects will be negligible.
OK I am all ears - what does this do that others don't? How can I review the documentation to get a sense of what the interface looks like from which I can program the operating logic of the system?
By far the best comparison I know of is at S.E.T Inc (SETNET).
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"AUTOMATION CONTROLLERS Feature, Benefits, Hardware and Software For: HAI Omni; LT, IIe, Pro II Elk Products; EZ8, M1Gold OnQ Legrand; HMS 800, 950e,
1100 "
It may not be 100% current, but is extremely comprehensive.
The company also offers courses on various panels which might be of interest. These folks have been in the business for a long time and know the ins and outs of HA panels and accessories based on real-world experience as the industry and options developed.
Your concern is a legitimate one. If I get the installation manuals for the specific units you want I can help with the automation but I'm not a swimming pool contractor. I hired a company to redo my pool last year and (with a fair amount of prodding) they did a good job. However, they had no clue about HA systems. I had to figure all that out for myself. Fortunately, the valves and almost all other components are controlled by switched 24VAC so interfacing it to the ELK-M1G is simple.
It will be interesting developing the site specific part of my project, which includes choosing which, if any heater to activate and when to throw which valves. That part isn't difficult; just requires some thought and a few phone calls to tech support.
I prefer to share here. Others may get some useful ideas from you and vice versa. Once in a while I even post something useful. :^)
We don't do installations at all. I'm an online vendor. My web store sells this stuff. You're welcome to browse and ask any questions you like. There are actually hundreds of companies selling these systems online...
I'll have to answer the rest of your post later. My wife is calling me to get ready. We're having a little party tonight to celebrate my birthday. There are about 110 people due in the next hour or so. I'll try to get back to you tomorrow.
OK if you would prefer to work out the specs on the group here that's fine too - I'd still be glad to buy the system from you if you can help me to select them.
It seems to me even as a fairly technolog-addicted person, there is a huge world out there of home automation components but the details can get hard to integrate with something as mission-critical as a pool. If you had to work at integrating a pool in Florida (as a vendor yourself no less) then the odds of my finding someone with such experience for a year-round Pennsylvania pool are pretty small.
They are if you don't search at all. (-: Don't give up so quickly.
There are some serious advantages to using local contractors. Experience with local codes and the AHJ - (authority having jurisdiction) is worth an awful lot. Especially when dealing with something likely to involve three code sensitive areas (plumbing, electrical and gas) working together under unattended control. You don't want to find out your local authority has a particular gripe against something you might select. You'd be surprised at how many pool contractors are "home automation smart." The X-10 protocol analyzer that's often mentioned here:
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(as well as a lot of other pool automation equipment) was designed by a pool contractor.
Another reason to at least try to find a local contractor is that you may want to have someone maintain and service it. I've found over the years that presenting an installer with equipment you got elsewhere usually doesn't inspire them to take "ownership" of the project. Anything that goes wrong is likely to be blamed on the gear they felt was forced on them. A bad pool install can present some pretty lethal hazards, too. Carbon monoxide poisoning and electrocution lead the list for an installation that uses a gas heater.
Get the smarts you need from the many pool owner/automators here and in other groups and then use that knowledge to find a local contractor who knows all the HA buzzwords they should. If that search fails, then at least look for someone who can implement your plan and get it past inspection in your jurisdiction.
Try Worthington Distribution. Like you, they are in Pennsylvania and some would say they're the biggest HA outlet on the East Coast.
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They have an 800 number and you can probably get the name of a highly qualified home automation-savvy pool contractor as they sell a lot of pool automation gear. Ask for Rich. (800) 949-6255
No financial interest other than as a satisfied customer of Worthington's.
I went through these manuals and I must be missing something but I cannot see where I can buy a thermostat.
Let's say I want to start with a simple but expandable automation system which simply serves as a programmable remote thermostat for my pool's gas heater. The gas heater provides instructions for how to connect a 2-wire remote theremostat.
Where do I buy a 2-wire remote thermostat which works with the ELK-M1G? What else do I need beyond the ELK-M1G and the remote thermostat?
OK let me try to think outloud and answer my own question after some more research. Maybe I am making this much more complex than need be to get started.
Am I correct that I can simply buy a Z-Wave thermostat like the following and use it standalone to get this fundamental interface to the pool working and then step-by-step I can choose to add an ELK-M1G with Z-wave interface, then add Ethernet to the ELK, etc, etc.? So maybe I want to just break down the project step by step to learn how it works and increase the complexity of the system?
It's going to be really interesting in the next few months. I've observed (over the course of several years) that pricing of security, fire alarm, and computer related products is actually a bit better on this side of the border (even considering the past larger disparity in the dollar). I could, for instance pick up a 12 volt 8 AH battery (sealed lead acid type) for less than $9.00 Canadian when the Canadian Dollar was worth less than $.80 US. Even adding a "modest 30 percent markup", I can still blow the doors off a lot of online vendors. Hmmmm... Come to think of it... :-)
Yes, you are correct, except that the linked product is actually the now discontinued RCS model. It can be simpler than that, however. You can install ELK-M1ZTSR modules and connect them to the ELK-M1G controller. Where the pump / light / heater controls are add an ELK-M1XIN input expander and ELK-M1RB relay board. You can read temperatures as well as light, valve, pump and heater operating status into the ELK-M1XIN as dry contact or analog (0-10V) inputs. You can operate everything via relays on the ELK-M1RB. The input board has 16 zones and the relay board has 8 outputs. You can have multiple boards as needed. They all connect to the M1G control via a single CAT5 cable.
The relays on the M1RB are rated for 10A @ 125VAC or 7A @ 30VDC. To control heavy loads you can use an ELK-9100 or any high-current contactor from another manufacturer.
Am I correct that this is basically the equivalent of a do-it-yourself thermostat?
And as a result if I do this then the operation of my pool heating system becomes dependent upon my having a functioning ELK-M1G system?
If so, that seems like a reliability risk. It seemed to me that beauty of the RCS device was that it was a freestanding thermostat; if the rest of my home automation system crashed I could just keep using the thermostats manually.
No. The preferred approach is to have each subsystem capable of working in stand-alone mode. Particularly in northern states it is important that heaters run with or without the HA system. The HAI, RCS and Aprilaire models all meet this requirement. The same approach would apply to the pool control system.
I don't know. Probably low sales volume. The entire HVAC industry has been in a slump with housing starts down. Have you looked at the Aprilaire thermostat yet? Some of my customers are using it with the ELK system. The manufacturer's website has extensive documentation. Here's a URL:
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