Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy

That's the core of the issue - I would guess that Android devices are only uploading BSSIDs to the Google database when they see that Access Point broadcast an SSID, and that SSID doesn't end with "_nomap".

iPhones on the other hand, I would guess are uploading BSSIDs to the Apple database as soon as they see that Access Point broadcasting anything, regardless of whether they have seen an SSID from it.

If it works the way I am suggesting, then it means that Google's database would automatically exclude "hidden" networks, and Apple's wouldn't - and not only that, Apple would have no way of immediately excluding them. They would need to issue updated iPhone software, and then wait until almost all iPhones in the world that were still in use were using the new software.

We can't prove what prompted Apple to change their documentation, but we certainly can prove that it did indeed change, using archive.org. In December 2025 the page did not mention hidden networks, and today it does.

Carlos,

And thats another of Arlens problems : You can't just retrieve records from that database.

You could plug your own BSSID into the database and get a number of other, near BSSIDs which you than also query (rinse and repeat), hoping to spread it like a water-ripple, any kind of "dead space" stops that ripple.

IOW, if there is any distance between the town you're in and the next town over you won't see that one in your results. And as good-old 'Murrica has a LOT of "dead space" (neighbours lliving miles apart) the chance that Arlens "the entire world" is nothing more than *very* wishfull thinking.

I had intended, in that other thread, to put that forward to Arlen. But seeing that he could not even grasp that the translation from a persons name to that persons (routers) BSSID was already wrought with problems I thought better of it.

Regards, Rudy Wieser

Aha. Right.

I agree. And I did the same. The fact that Arlen couldn't very easily evidence his assertion, despite my challenge above, speaks volumes.

Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria? Are you from the 70s?

Lane W wrote:

I've answered this question a thousand times, and it simply won't stick.

Do you think I care about privacy? Yes, or No?

Do you think I say privacy is a million things, of which most people know 3 for no good reason? I used to have a security clearance at Fort Mead (which dates me, as the NSA is no longer at Fort Mead, as far as I can recall).

I know privacy. I can always learn more.

But headers are a component of privacy just as much as is rotating the time zones (which you likely didn't notice) and the IP address (via rotating VPN).

I care about privacy.

For privacy, typically on the first of the year, but it can be any time I feel it's needed, I send a thread to every newsgroup I frequent, letting them know that the headers are randomized (much like a BSSID should be).

This is to foil robotic aggregators, not you. Robots. Not people. The trolls can't fathom that privacy concept.

The trolls can't fathom that you have to actually rob a bank to be a bank robber, and not that you just happen to wear a mask for privacy reasons.

The header is the wrapping paper. It's the gift of the immense content in the body that has great value.

But aggregators "can" track your posts across the Internet. I post to many (many!) forums (web forums like XDA, Telegram, etc.)

I don't want my ID to be tracked, so I change the header. But not the body.

The body is always the same well-educated engineer/scientist. The same phone (since 2021) and the same unique screenshots. The same PC (since 2009) and again, the same unique screenshots. The same Santa Cruz Mountains location. The same excellent grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Same newsserver (although they change over time as they come and go). Hell, the same educational degrees, both undergrad and graduate.

Hell, the same source for the images, and I even re-use images, so anyone wanting to track me not by the headers, could track, oh, say, these jpegs.

Who does that, but me. Yet, the trolls, who can never add value, say that by wanting privacy, I'm a troll. They say that crap all the time, which says a lot about them.

I'm not hiding from anyone in the body.

Everything is the same in the body. It's only the header that is randomized.

Hell, few people notice but I try to end each line perfectly, even as most people might let the 80-character line wrap do it for them (that's because I wrote my own newsreader which uses gvim macros to equalize line content).

What's sadly hilarious is that, after hundreds of posts of EXACTLY the same me in every say, the trolls (especially on Apple ngs) excitedly claim I FOUND YOU!!!!!!

It's like you put this big fat egg in the middle of the lawn for the mentally challenged people, and they shout out with glee that they found what was never even for a moment hidden from people with a normal IQ.

Because he is not Maria.

He is a nameshifter, he changes his name eventually. We have known him for a long time as Arlen in the past, so that's the name we stick to, not the name he uses at the current time.

I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call him by that.

He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes his name. I would respect that.

Carlos E.R. wrote:

Hi Carlos,

Since almost nobody on these technical newsgroups are females, IMHO, I think I'll use Maria only for a few years and change it to, oh, Sally.

That would be another clear and obvious indication that I'm not hiding for even a moment FROM YOU, but from robot header aggregation tools, which is more and more of a problem even as I recognized the issue two decades ago.

And while I get why you associate nymshifting with the disgusting trolls, you need to take an elementary course in Logic (or Occam's Razor at least).

A person has to rob a bank to be called a disgusting bank robber, right? Just putting a mask on his face for privacy does not make him a criminal.

In fact, your disgusting habit of absurdly claiming everyone who uses a fake name is a troll is starting to grate on me as it's disingenuous.

You may be truly a Carlos, but your oft-repeated claim that anyone who doesn't use their real name in Usenet posts is a troll is patently absurd.

I randomize the headers by a *lot* of things, time zone being one of them. So is the IP address. And, at times, the newsreader (usually when they go suddenly defunct such as with netfront, mixmin, aioe, dizum, et al.)

But if it takes you or anyone more than a split second to realize only I post like I do, with perfect English grammer, punctuation & sentence structure, and from Santa Cruz Mountains, with a Silicon Valley heritage, and with the same phone with a unique homescreen (since 2021) and the same PC with a unique desktop (since 2009) with the same privacy focus, and even down to the same way I put a period after the double-quote, you're a moron.

Hell, who posts this kind of screenshots for decades on end, sans changing?

Only the trolls claim I troll. As you have to actually troll to be called a troll.

Just desiring privacy from robotic aggregation, while you may believe nobody has that right of privacy, does not make my valuable posts trolls.

However, it can be said that responding to your incessant trolls, may count, so stop trolling this newsgorup with your off-content bullshit.

Stick to the technical subject so we don't need to defend against your incessant trolls.

"Ads You See Online Are Now Police Surveillance"

"This video explores how advertising data became a powerful surveillance tool."

We're all doomed.

No, I never said such a thing. Citation, please?

...

...

Not the case. I would respect that.

Exactly! If the aggregators don't get you, the trolls will!

BTW, I hid my SSID and now I can't find it anywhere!

Hi Jeff,

I was wondering where you've been as you seem to have retired from the Internet service business in recent years. I see you on the electronics repair ng sometimes, but rarely here nowadays.

I still remember you proved how the router transmit power claims are completely bogus, much as Apple's claims of battery efficiency were.

You, of all people, have my true identity as we've conversed a few times over the years in email and on Usenet about our shared WISP experiences, e.g., surfnet, ridge, etheric, hilltop, xfinity, et al., and you and I both personally know most of the local operators, e.g., mike, loren, dave.

When I moved to the Santa Cruz Mountains from flatland in San Jose, I was shocked there was no wired services, so people only had satellite or WISP.

I ended up inviting the local WISP team to serve me, for free, and as a result, they serve the whole mountain as I have a repeater on my rooftop.

For years, I provided them with good business by setting up all my neighbors with 2.4GHz radios and eventually the 5GHz rocket dishes.

At some point they started doing the installations themselves, so I no longer had to log into every neighbor's router to update the firmware.

I want to THANK YOU for teaching me a LOT of what I know about Wi-Fi networking, particularly you're pretty clear on how they lie about decibels, where we have control over our transmit strength if we like.

You also taught me a lot about changing the BSSID, or not, which was well before Google became big so it's fundamental knowledge you imparted to me.

I very much APPRECIATE all the help you've provided over the decades. You haven't posted much lately, so I'm happy to know you're still around!

I think we're almost the same age, where I'm an octogenarian, while you're most likely still a young kid in your 70's, as I recall (but maybe not).

In summary, I love the sagacious sharpness of your sarcasm, which is, like Paul's, well honed by decades of experience finding things out the hard way.

I'm HAPPY you're still around, as you, & maybe Jon, & perhaps Lawrence, & maybe even Andy, are the only ones seemingly capable of understanding this topic, where if we follow the breadcrumb of the BSSID:GPS pair, the way Apple does it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the way everyone else does it.

Apple claims "we care about your privacy"... except when they don't.

--

Trolls agreeing with trolls, and yet, they're not only wrong, but they can never seem to add even a single itty bitty iota of value to the topic.

Sigh...

There is no sense in explaining that both of you don't understand the issue, other than to repeat, for the umpteen time, the word "mass" in *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*

And, for the other half of this technical topic, that Apple changed their documentation at my request, which is proven by the fact I made that claim on these very newsgroups, that they said they would, before they did it.

I officially retired on Dec 31, 2020, after the CZU fire and the middle of the Covid 19 pandemic. At the time, I was 72 years old, which I thought was a good age to retire.

alt.internet.wireless was intended to cover various methods of radio communications technology (cellular, wi-fi, satellite, point to point, etc) to obtain internet access. Initially, most of the design and testing work was in the US. By the time I retired, it had mostly moved to the far east.

Yeah, that got me rather angry. That was a clear example of Apple hiding what I consider to be a design error by burying the problem under a mountain of technobabble and claiming a rubber bumper had solved the problem.

"Cell Phone Antenna Hand Tests"

"Apple iPhone users angry about the "death grip" won $15 in federal court."

Don't worry. I may have your secret identity somewhere on my computer but at this time, I can't find it.

I moved to the hills in about 1974(?). There were enough lines and phone numbers for everyone. Near the end of the 1970's, the BBS's (bulleting board services) and garage ISP's arrived. Available phone lines and numbers suddenly became scarce. In about 1994, the BBS and garage ISP's moved into problem office buildings, which freed up quite a few phone lines, which were immediately consumed by a student population increase inspired by rapidly rising real estate costs.

Nice. Good to see you made it work. I tried to organize something similar but using buried twisted pair, coax cable, fiber and some Wi-Fi distributing internet, cable TV, satellite TV, and some CATV cameras. It worked fairly well, until a newly arrive resident decided to complain about the service to the county, instead of to us. I was tired of getting midnight support calls and was more than happy to see the service calls disappear with the equipment.

Good plan. I took the middle road by having the neighbors bring their equipment to my house, where I had a proper messy workbench to deal with updates and rat damage. House calls were billable and intended only for installations. The parents tolerated that because it saved them money and gave the local teenagers some networking experience.

That's a rather odd way to describe the problem. Wi-Fi TPC (transmit power control) was NOT required for the early Wi-Fi hardware. By the time it became mandatory, the number of Wi-Fi devices was many times larger than was the systems were originally designed to handle. TPC was one solution for keeping interference down to a tolerable level. I have some opinions on the matter, but they can wait for some other time. "8 reasons to turn down the transmit power of your Wi-Fi"

Remember the "alligator"? Spoiler: An alligator is an animal with a very big mouth and tiny ears. The Wi-Fi equivalent is a radio running very high transmit power but had a deaf receiver. Such a system, will cover a wide area in transmit, but can't hear any small devices (laptops, smartphones, IoT device, etc over the same area.

Y're welcome. If you know the fundamentals, you can use them to build a model of how the network works. In the other direction, knowing how the higher levels of the network works, without knowing the fundamentals, leaves you trying to reverse engineer the fundamentals from the upper network layers. That's much more difficult than starting with fundamentals.

Y'er welcome. It's good to know someone was listening.

Well, that's a problem. I'm getting old (78 currently), tired and lazy. Debating the finer points of some technology eventually turns into an endless time burn. Your endless discussion with "Carlos E.R." is a good example. Carlos seems to baiting you with less than brilliant one-line comments, which usually results literary effluvia from you. All that does is waste everyone's time. Yours is wasted because you write more than anyone is willing to read. My time is wasted, but I just don't have the time to read the entire thread. I suspect the typical Usenet reader thinks in a similar manner.

Hint: Adjust your quality and quantity to that of your audience. Too much is sometimes worse than too little.

Close. I'm 78. I look and feel somewhat younger for a rather odd reason. From my parking space by the road to the upper level of my house is about 50 stairs. Everything that goes in and out of the house needs to navigate those stairs. My cardiologist believes that the stair climbing is largely responsible for my tolerable health. Unfortunately, exercise is not a cure of geriatric (old age) problems. For example, I discovered that I was lactose intolerant about a month ago. I've also had to deal with some more serious medical problems (and medical fire drills). Eventually, I'll need to build a firewood and funicular lift.

Thanks.

Apple's success has been primarily from their "walled garden" philosophy. The implication is that everything inside their "walled garden" is different for what is outside. Also, if something is the same both inside and outside of their "walled garden" (i.e. standards), Apple will do everything they can to make their part of the problem as different as possible. USB-C chargers perhaps?

I'll pass. I had dinner at midnight last night and don't want a repeat performance. Good luck.

Baiting! Interesting idea, but no, I have no such intention. Not knowingly, at least.

Agreed. (You) Refusing to get engaged in his sprees of insults, misrepresentations, lies, etc., is in *no* way 'baiting'. Quite the opposite. Any and all baiting is purely on 'Arlen''s side.

That said, (obviously) no ill feelings at all towards Jeff.

I concur. Although, the curt responses from Carlos are a symptom of being vilified for days by Arlen.

Good point. I didn't read the entire thread. All I saw was long and repetitive comments by Arlen and short, one-line replies by Carlos. I interpreted the short replies as an attempt to extend the discussion without adding anything of value. I also tend to ignore one-line replies because they tend to contain little or nothing of value. Whether this was intentional trolling by Carlos, or frustration dealing with Alren, is unknown.

I have a simple solution to the problem. When I'm involved in a discussion that has devolved into on-line comments (which incidentally seems to be the fashion with text-messaging style comments), I just stop adding my fuel to the fire. Similarly, when the argument has reached an impasse, I also stop as further repetition will serve no useful purpose. When the discussion inevitably changes topic, I immediately question my continued involvement. Basically, if I don't think it's worth reading, I won't write anything. Those are a big part of why I avoid posting comments in newsgroups and forums.

Gone to help a friend with his camper resurrection project.