Hello Everyone: I'm trying to figure out what sensors to get for all of my windows. It seems when the pre-wire was done all of the holes that were drilled into the window were 1/2" and have a cap that has a hook inside that holds the pre-wire. The other issue is the holes are directly below every single window's seal that runs across the bottom of the pane that moves up and down. The window seal is sort of silver looking and is rectangular shaped. The seal is about 1/4" thick on the short side of the rectangle and about 3/8" wide on the wide side of the rectangle. So I have 2 questions:
Does a 3/8" sensor fit into a 1/2" hole? Is it OK to get a button type magnet and somehow affix it to the seal on the bottom of the window with glue or the like?
Should I use pressure type switches for the window? What can you recommend? I have a feeling that since the sensor will be under the seal, it would be easy to insert something from outside and bypass the sensor by holding it down when opening the window. This part worries me.
On a side note, all of the doors were pre-drilled at 1/2" as well. Most of the doors have the holes at the top of the door (inside the door frame) and one has it on the side where the door handle is (yet again inside the door frame). All of the doors are metal but one. What should I do for this? I've seen the roller ball type switches, but also read they are prone to clogging. I like the wheel ones, but haven't read many comments about them.
So it's OK to stick the magnet to the weather strip on the bottom of the window? The existing hole is directly under the seal. Can the magnet be moved away from the strip so it's close to the switch, but not on top of it? Pardon my ignorance - new DIY'r here.
Do I have to pay attention to the magnets that are designed for metal doors? One is a garage door and the other is a set of two french doors. Both are clad in metal but I believe have an insulated core.
are these wood windows? if they are then you can drill a 3/8" hole in them just deep enough to sink the mag, use a short one so you don't drill into glass. pull the seal out of the way with your finger and drill as close to magnet as you can without damaging the seal. the magnet can be off center a little bit
if the area you are drilling is wood there is no need for a spacer. stick a mag to area to be drilled and if it sticks you need a spacer. if so you will have to drill 3/4" hole and use a spacer.
Thanks. They're vinyl clad, but quality windows. I'm sure they're hollow core as light as they are but I haven't tried to install the switches yet. I'm thinking about putting a button up and a bit off center and securing it using a screw rather than drilling a hole for the entire push button type magnet assembly. The rare earth magnets look like the ones to use. Do you have a good source for the 1/2" recessed switches? I can only find one company that makes them (GRI) and their part number for the 1/2" variety is not coming up with a simple search.
The last big house I did (really big) the regional Pella rep was there (really big sale for them I guess), so I asked him about the concern with voiding the warrantee...he said why would it?...besides how else would install a contact?
So...I told him they should offer the option of having the windows pre-drilled so we don't have to deal with it.
That might be cool, but better that we do it or their hole might end up over a stud. :-( We'd still have to drill anyway, to get through the rough sill.
If these are hollow core vinyl be extremely careful drilling them. There's often very little space between the vinyl and the edge of the glass inside. Consider using a miniature surface mount sensor. Another poster suggested using rare switches with earth magnets. The magnets come in a number of shapes and sizes, one or another of which you might be able to fit into the slot holding the insulation strip. That would require trimming off about 1/4" to 1/3" of the strip in most cases -- not enough to affect the window's insulation properties.
Another alternative which works for some windows is GRI's model MC-25. This is a channel mount device to hold a magnet on the side edge of the sash. Depending on the make, the sides may be clear or they may have counter-balance cables hidden in them. Before drilling check the window manufacturer's website. Some, like Anderson, have schematic drawings and installation manuals you can download.
After reading this thread again, I find that there were a few things left unsaid.
First of all, who ever did the pre-wire, didn't have a clue about what he was doing. I don't know if you've considered it, but if you went through a builder for the pre wire, have you contacted him and asked him to make good on the poor job or at least get some compensation for your upcoming and ongoing troubles with your alarm system? What did he say? If you contracted it directly, have you pursued it with the contractor and what did they say? Did you ask either of them what their plans were for the ? inch holes in the sills? Or perhaps you just bought the house "as is"
No one has said this, but DO NOT use any kind of push button switch in the sills of windows. They will inevitably jam with debris, grit, paint .... you name it.
No one has mentioned that GRI also carries 1/4 inch rare earth magnets that may align with the ? inch recessed contacts. Even though the ? inch switch is larger than a 3/8s inch switch does not mean that you need a larger magnet to make it operate. Generally speaking you can pretty much count on the fact that now days, most switches use the same size reed contact and require the same amount of magnetic pull to activate them. You'd have to experiment, to be absolutely sure, but I'm betting that the 1/4 inch rare earth mags, drilled beside and on the inside of the weather strip, would be strong enough to close the ? switch. GRI has two sizes .... 1/4" dia by 1/8" thick and 1/4" dia by
1/4' thick. The latter being the stronger of the two. If you've got enough meat in the bottom of the sash to drill a 1/4 inch deep hole with a brad point bit .... to recess the magnet, then I have no doubt it would pull in the ?" switch.
I'd have to actually see the window and how and where the holes were drilled, but if I were looking at the job, I would try to evaluate if the wires could be redirected so that you might be able to consider using surface mount contacts on the inside window sill, rather than messing with the ? contacts that are going to be at least partially exposed to the weather. ( ie the part of the switch that's on the outer side of the window seal.) I'd bet there's a possibility that with an experienced installer with a practiced dill hand, a small wire hole could be drilled between the inner window sill or ( if the window has a raised lower lip on it) the inside edge of the window. A small surface contact could be used instead of an ill placed, partially exposed contact in the outer sill. Once the wire was re-routed, hole plugs could be used to fill the ? holes, then caulked and painted. Now days, there are many surface mount contacts that are so small as to be almost unnoticeable.
The wires may be able to be re-routed to another hole drilled in the right place in the sill, that would accommodate a 3/8 inch recessed contact also. Again .... sealing up the ? hole.
With regard to the doors, I don't use the roller ball or roller wheel switches. Eventually they will need replacing and they will likely jam and you'll think the door is protected .... when it isn't.
There are ? recessed magnetic contacts that are made specifically for metal doors. Actually they are normal ? contacts with heavy duty magnets. Some/most(?) have the switches and or the magnets spaced so that they are as far away from the metal as possible.
The house came pre-wired at no cost to me when I built it last year. I do not think I have any recourse to contact the installers directly, as after looking at a neighbors house that had his alarm "activated" by the company that did the pre-wire, all of the windows have a push button type switch that goes under the seal and into the sill. First off, I didn't like how this looked, and secondly the info I read about the internet has lead me far, far away from these types of switches if they are to be exposed to the elements. To me, I'm not sure if contacting the pre-wire company makes any sense since if they did this bad of a job in the first place, I don't think I want them mucking around with my windows and make it any worse.
Got it, thanks.
I've found a good source for the switches as well as the "button" type magnets that have a hole in the middle of them to be screwed to the bottom of the sash. So you're saying there needs to be a drilled out hole for the buttons to sit in? I believe the window is the newer style hollow core type that is entirely made of plastic and metal with dual panes with an insulation layer between.
Would you like to see a photo? I can put one on the net tonight. I had thought about using surface mounted contacts but the look doesn't appeal to me. But, at the end of the day I want functional perimeter detection, so the surface mounts may be the way to go. I'd just have to figure out how to get the holes lined up since most of the pre- drilled holes are nowhere near the outside edges of the sill. The only way I could see doing it is to route a channel into the sash with a dremel and run the wire in there, then covering it up with putty and painting. Sounds like a lot of work though!
I noted this too, and putting in reed switches isn't that hard, so I'm going that route.
Alignment problems over time are EASY to spot...recessed switches that were difficult to align to begin with are a PITA to find/fix when you have a no-set 5 years from now.
They're inside protected from snow/rain, and expansion/contraction of wood (even vinylclad moves)
Where I am they are less succeptable to lightning damage.
You can find small ones in various colors so you'll barely see them against the window frame.
I've used both types for many years. I prefer recessed contacts whenever they can be used which for me is most of the time. My business was in CT where almost every home and business has a basement and an accessible attic. GE Security (nee: Sentrol) makes a good switch for use in new wood which *might* contract, though any good quality new window or door frame should be made of aged wood (doesn't shrink). The 1275 sensor has little "wings" on the sides which allow the switch to fit snugly in a slightly over or under sized hole. The switch is also easier to pull out should it ever need replacement.
Since the sensors are hermetically sealed and we soldered our splices, moisture has not been a problem IME.
I disagree about lightning damage. If it hits the line any switch you use will be toast. The best way to reduce the likelihood of lightning damage is to use a bonded ground for all incoming services.
That said, I've used thousands of surface mounted magnetic contacts over the years. All other things being the same they hold up as well as recessed ones. The only weakness is they are more subject to impact damage if they're mounted near the floor or on a window sill that gets a lot of activity.
I prefer the recessed ones primarily because they're not noticeable.
That seems very logical and the way it should be. However, this has never been my experience in real life. If one pictures a string of Christmas Tree lights like switches in a N/C circuit, and calls them in order
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc, then damage can occur to > >
Out here with stucco frame houses (chicken wire under the stucco) and aluminum frame windows is an invitation for welded contacts. I once did 3 model homes all recessed Sentrol contacts in the aluminum frames, the houses are strung together on one system, and there was a good 100 switches. I finished on a friday night they were scheduled to open the new models on Monday. Everything was done and tested, but I had to go back a finish a few odds and ends on Sat.. There was lightning Friday night after I left....next morning 80 percent of the switches installed recessed in the aluminum windows were welded closed. The wood doors were fine (there were 5 in each house) and some windows on the north sides of the houses were ok. You musta heard me cursing from CT!! I had to re-do all those freeking switches without a helper. I was there all frrking day. It wasn't a direct hit either.
After that incident and one other like it...I don't do many recessed anymore unless it's necessary (casements or customs)
Cabling-Design.com Forums website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.