avoiding being "locked out"

That was his return trip...he was there longer before. I ran into him abt 6 months ago at a bid meeting for a state agency access control system.

Yes, and his son Ken (heard of but never met Wayne). Tom was top notch, Ken was only there a short (sic) time.

X.

news:R0bOe.650198$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Ain't the Internet great (sometimes)?

X.

Now that you mention it, I remember that. For me, he was in and then out. I had Wayne's old office when I started, but never met him.

Thanks for the memories. 8^)

X.

message

news:lxeOe.122780$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Damn ! You're starting to sound like me. I thought I was the only one on the NG pissed off when lockout is practiced unethically !! This all too clearly illustrates one additional way alarmco's abuse this feature. This also illustrates so well why the law should intervene in situations like this where companies willingly do what they clearly know is wrong. And it's total chickensit frankly to think that the cost of a board would ever really discourage takeovers. It doesn't stop dealers, only consumers. Clearly Counterforce in the US is not the quality company that Counterforce is up here (assuming they are both the same company)

Consumers should have it written into their contract that the dealer will either not lock the board or agree to unlock it at their cost at the point where the panel belongs to the client free and clear of any financial obligations. And better they not lock it at all, since so many alarmco's go belly up, leaving the client high and dry !!

Now you can understand why frustrated people will often say..."there outta be a law...." Perhaps there should be in these cases !!

RHC

At several points I have contacted all the buyers of alarm system contracts and they all want to lockout the panels of the accounts they buy mainly because they think you won't change companies at some point if you're panel has to be replaced.

Clearly if the customer owns their panel (any many do not ever own their panel) they should be able to do whatever they darn well please with it. However, a lot of companies simply go along with the programs they have hooked themselves up with and violate the law. I remember Counterforce in Houston telling me I would have to replace every panel that they could not download and lockout or they wouldn't buy the contracts. It boggles the mind.

All you can do is ask. You should also verify they didn't lie to you.

What law and where does it exist?

A law exists that requires ALL security and fire alarm installation, service and maintenance companies to be licensed.

Provisions of this law require education, fingerprinting and background checks to protect you, the consumer, from fraud and criminal deception.

Department of State Division of Licensing Services

Main Office

Albany: (518) 474-4429 Fax: (518) 473-2730

Regional Offices

Binghamton: (607) 721-8757 Buffalo: (716) 847-7110 Hauppauge: (631) 952-6579 New York: (212) 417-5747 Syracuse: (315) 428-4258 Utica: (315) 793-2533 Watertown: (315) 785-2371

Web site:

New York State Department of State Division of Licensing Services84 Holland Avenue Albany, NY 12208-3490

New York State

Department of State

Business of Installing, Servicing or Maintaining Security or Fire Alarm Systems

(General Business Law, Article 6D)

Division of Licensing Services George E. Pataki Randy A. Daniels

Governor Secretary of State

 CONSUMER ADVISORY ON SYSTEM LOCK OUT CODES

Lock out code technology protects the alarm system and the consumer from fraudulent entry to the system?s electronic composition.

Consumers who own alarm systems that are free of financial obligation should have access to the system?s electronic composition.

An alarm-system agreement should provide that lock out codes (also referred to as source codes) are to be defaulted or released to the consumer for their access to the security system?s program levels.

Please be sure to review the alarm system agreement carefully with regard to lock out \\ source code access.

For information about the Security or Fire Alarm License go to

Article 6D General Business Law

The law administered by the NYS Department of State, Division of Licensing Services is Article 6D of the General Business Law, Business of Installing, Servicing or Maintaining Security or Fire Alarm Systems. The general qualifications for an individual to obtain a license is completion of an education program approved by the Department of State and passing a written exam. Once you have met these qualifications, a criminal fingerprint check is done through the NYS Division of Criminal Justice Services.

License and Identification Requirement

Any licensed company that operates in your neighborhood is required by the Department of State to prominently display their license number in their place of business. In addition, all installers, technicians and alarm maintenance personnel must carry an identification card at all times. You have the right, and we encourage you, to ask to see their license. You can also verify a license by contacting the Department of State, Division of Licensing Services.

How to Verify a License with New York State

There are two ways to verify the license of an individual or company through the Department of State, Division of Licensing Services.

Phone: (518) 474-4429 Web site:

How to Handle Violations of the Law

Installing, servicing or maintaining a security or fire alarm system without a New York State license is a violation of the law. Convicted persons can receive up to one year in jail and a $1,000 fine. Contact the Attorney General, your local district attorney or police department to file a complaint. Complaints against licensed alarm installers should be filed with the Department of State, Division of Licensing Services. You can obtain a complaint form by utilizing the telephone number or web site address listed above.

Avoid False Alarms

To ensure proper use and avoid false alarms, be sure you can operate your system properly before the installer leaves your home.

wrote in message news:QOYQe.12$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...

I knew it had to be some where, somehow. It isn't in the licensing laws but sounds like it is a "fair trade act" type of thing and probably falls under the AG's office. I often wondered that it might be in the real estate laws, transfer of property, etc. I will have to look at it here alot closer. The reason I ask, is because, I just ran across a situation where one of my customers bought a new home and the panel, installed during contruction, was already locked and there was no Association agreement. Brand new home, no one has ever lived in it. I called the builder, who was no help naturally, and the owner of the sercurity company. He has locked out all of the homes. His response was, "You know the cost of putting in these systems and he was tired of losing out on the monitoring. If I wanted the account, change the equipment." My response was, "Wouldn't it be easier to just charge for your system instead of giving it away up front." I really don't debate this issue with these guys, but they are doing things Bass ackwards. Start charging the builders for a fair days work and the dealer won't have to start out on the wrong foot with a potential client who will tell everyone what a jerk the dealer is because they have been left without a choice. The whole neighborhood will know it before the dealer gets in the door simply because the dealer chose to give it away up front. I question this philosophy but to each their own. If I can find this law or what pertains to this type of dealing, it gets passed on to those who wish to make wise business decisions before they find themselves in legal action. Many times, good dealers face legal action simply because they were not aware there was a violation. Thanks for the info. By the way, I am not against locking out panels when the feature is used for what it was intended for and also will gladly make the default process part of my agreement. It is just good business.

Bob W.

It's called theft by conversion. If you deny the legal owner of the property the use and benefit of it thats theft. In these cases the theft converts someone else's property to the use and benefit of the monitoring company and prevents the legal owner from using it. Every state has such a law.

So Microsoft should be obligated under this law to provide me with the source code for Windows so I can operate my own OS on my own PC?

Let me tell you what it's called...."Fallout". 30 years of it, is now catching up with the Industry. It's another example of being re-active, instead of pro-active in the Industry. The Industry allowed every Tom, Dick, and Harry have access to equipment. Trained or untrained, if you have a credit card, you're a freaking alarm company, or an alarm professional. What's been the fallout? Open your freaking Eyes! Crooks installing alarms, Free Installations, false alarms, fines, licensing, verification standards, laws, codes (lack of), etc. etc. Companies that are here today....gone tomorrow. Who's to blame? Some retard out there selling/installing the stuff? Nope. This Industry has sat on it's fat merry ass reaping the rewards of RMR like a barrel of monkeys...see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Where it's at today is caused from the "Fallout" of being oblivious to the surroundings.

Lockcodes are just another example of how to abuse the intentions. When someone gets killed because they decided to do some creative programming with Life Safety equipment, just because they can, not that their qualified to....I'm sure some other politician/lawyer will create another "re-active" law to protect it's citizens from being stupid, after their dead.

rant off...

The installing dealer has the option to use a different code in every panel or to use the same code in all of them. If he's so incompetent that he uses the same code everywhere, that is his fault -- not the client's -- and it is his responsibility alone to remedy the situation at no cost to his customers.

I always get a kick out of this excuse. Years ago I needed to look up the phone number of a competitors. The telco information operator gave me several local numbers from which to choose. The first two turned out to be lines connected to one of their receivers. :^)

The *real* reason alarm companies lock out alarm panels is nothing to do with customer security or false alarms. They want to make it more costly for the client to switch monitoring services. All the excuses about liability, security and such are nothing more than a smokescreen. It's all about keeping the customer strapped to that monitoring contract.

Nah.

You're wrong. You've been wrong for this group for years. And you will continue to be wrong as long as you persist in your efforts to be a genuine asshole. It makes no difference what you think say or do in this Newsgroup. You are known to be an arrogant know it all, with no credibility whatsoever. Say what you will, there will always be someone to point out exactly what you are and what you've done to destroy this Newsgroup.

Your every post is a welcome opportunity for someone of your endless list of enemies, to step up and point out what a prick you really are.

Keep up the much appreciated occasions to ridicule you ..... just as you've done to so many people through the years. Burning bridges was fun ..... wasn't it? Until you reached the end of the road. You've no where to turn now you fat jerk. Everyone knows what you are and you'll never .....EVER ...... be allowed to get recognition in this Newsgroup by any more unsuspecting victims.

this babbling makes no sense. what dealers do is their own business, not yours. they can lock or not lock. I'll bet very few do not lock, and I know they're NOT the smart ones.

I always get a kick out of BAss making up a story and thinking anyone around here believes it. :^)

This sentence proves BAss is an idiot or a moron, not sure which.

They want

BAss futile attempts at trying to sound like he knows what he is talking about are nothing more than a smoke screen. It's all about him not being able to pass an OPEN BOOK test in FL to get his electrical license , therefore he can't sell monitoring and because of that he is pissed at those that can. His answer to the mess he has himself in is to denigrate honest business people because he can't be one.

Point of clarification ! There are two different issues that I have found can sometimes get confused as one and the same. We have to be careful which one we are taling about.

Changing the installer code is one issue, and is something every installing company can and should do. This is totally sufficient to protect all the proprietary information in the alarm panel. Once the panel is defaulted to factory by the next company, any and all proprietary information is lost. In these threads, this seems to be incorrectly taken as "locking out a panel" which is a totally different thing.

"Locking out " a panel really means utilizing the true hardware lockout feature which in turn means that NO ONE else can EVER get in to the panel and it won't default to factory (and in so doing destroys all that information that everyone seems so intent on keeping secret). It's only purposes that I can see are to 1- legitimately protect a leased or not yet paid for system from outright theft in one form or another...and 2- to maintain control of "who comes next" in regards to resetting the panel to be monitored elsewhere by some other company.

Number 2 is where the abuse can happen, NOT the first situation

R.H.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Indeed, so why do you continue?

This is a public newsgroup. Anyone can comment on anything they wish -- even you.

When they do it to a customer owned panel and refuse to release the panel they are simply thieves.

Are they the successful ones?

No doubt.

Translation: You can't come up with an answer because I'm right.

There are several reasons why it's in a monitoring company's best interest to "lock out" a panel- mostly having to do with keeping installer codes secret, (which might be used in more than one customer's panel) and keeping account numbers and central station phone line numbers private. With this info, someone could disrupt monitoring for one or even many accounts, or create a "runaway" phantom alarm panel to keep the police from responding after several false alarms.

What's a-matter, Robert?? The weather in Salvador not living up to your expectations?? Or is it that you're in the "dog hut" again?? ;-))

How does changing only the installer code protect proprietary information?

It certainly doesnt on Ademco products...anyone that knows how, can get by the installer code unless the panel is locked, leaving your cs dialer number, and other info exposed.