ASA re-visited

If the big Bozo stay out ...

I will be more then happy to keep quiet ;-)

I've been enjoying this NG like never before.... We never had that much good conversation here,maybe because he was always telling us he would come back?

But what you know what? what if he just keep on reading..and keep on stealing info to put on his web site? what if he send his customer to us when he don't know an answer and tell them to not tell us he sent them here...for x and x reason..

Am I turning paranoid? LOL...

"mikey" a écrit dans le message de news: FY6dnZ2EJO3WHP snipped-for-privacy@rogers.com...

should be interesting .. this place has become alot more professional lately .. thats foe sure .. still there is no way to properly moderate it, so it will be up to the regulars to keep it under control to a degree ..

Eh? What did I miss while I was gone? Are you saying Bass is gone? What's the story?

He hasn't posted since about 2300 hours October 4th. No one seems to know where he is. He didn't post the "I'm going on Vacation... Going away for a few days" messages". From what I understand, he's not answering his emails either (as if *that's* news)...

It's not a matter of asking, Mike... I think it's already happening... Like Jim and a number of others have observed: Without RLB, the Group's actually pretty darn good!!!

There's always the "FAQ"...

In my experience, groups like this are mostly self-moderating.

That's only if there isn't one person who completely ignores the social contract for interacting in a mixed group and guiding FAQ that was used in setting up the group. If by "self-moderating, you mean that each person should govern their own limits to what is acceptable, what do you suggest should happen if one person refuses to restrain themselves? As long as one person acts as a miscreant, it will always cause dissent. In my opinion, it is then up to the group of participants to come together to subdue/chastise/make it evident that to all that his conduct is not acceptable. Not doing anything, simply enables the intruder and the corruption of the Newsgroup Lacking that, chaos abounds ..... as has been evident here for years.

I think there's an opportunity at this point to come to an agreement of what should be done about people who are the cause of disruption in this group. And for the sake of those who include me in that category, I don't exclude myself. Trying something different than what hasn't worked so far, couldn't do any worse than what's gone on here for much to long. If everyone's idea of creating peace in this group is to do nothing, simply waiting for Bass to show up or not, to see if HE's going to continue it or not, is just a invitation to continue the chaos. All that I've personally contributed to the chaos here, has been in opposition to his arrogance, and has been done in protest of the incredible lack of reaction about his unbelieveable conduct, by people here. It's my opinion, which has proven accurate, if people don't protest bad conduct, then you enable it. In a venue such as this, as long as some do and some don't, it will continue. It's only when all protest, that there will be credibility, significance, impact and strenght in numbers. It's simply the divison of numbers here, that has been the gateway for chaos.

We don't have to like one another, we just have to act as if we do, and act in unison in this one matter.

Some will not be able to resist starting up s*it when RLB returns...it'll be the same old stuff again.

OT: Where is that website with the images of some of the posters here...also had images of disaster installs? I keep losing the bookmark to it.

| > Nice and civil, almost professional in here these days. Lots of new folks | > posting and all manner of interesting technical discussions going on now. | > There are still some lingering feuds which is somewhat disheartening but | > it | > appears there is room for movement. Maybe I could start. I jumped on a new | > poster who suggested I read the f****ng manual. I think it may have been | > that raisin fellow, if it was, I apologize for calling you an asshole, | > Joe. | > You'd have to have been here awhile to see how perfectly likeable fellows | > can become jerks. Not an excuse, just offered as an explanation. | >

| > Jim seems to think we have an opportunity here and I happen to think he | > makes some very good points. Perhaps a few simple ground rules and we all | > just jump on any poster who forgets them... | >

| > Over | >

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| |

If there is any one reason why I did not frequent this news group much it was all the bickering and fighting that was going on. I really enjoy chitchatting with everyone here, but when you see so much anger and hatred--well, it was not a lot of fun to watch it.

I don't like everyone I meet and I don't meet only those I like. I don't see life like that. Everyone has their individual traits and some of those traits are good while some are bad. I just try to treat everyone like I would like to be treated. If we were to stick to that philosophy alone, I think everyone would be able to get along better. Also, as professionals we need to act professional. Lately I've seen a big change and no matter what the cause of that change may be, it looks good in this news group.

Thanks for listening.

Al

Al, that's exactly what's been happening here for years. Bass treats people badly and they treat him exactly as he treats others. Bass breaks the FAQ and others do the same. And that's EXACTLY the reason I do what I do here. I don't relish the fact that I disrupt this group, but if no one is gong to do or say anything to Bass for what he does here ...... to the group, to the trade, to individuals, I will protest that. And, simply to exemplify what the "do nothings" are allowing by their inaction, ....... it follows ..... if they don't protest one person breaking the rules of social conduct, then they simply leave the door open for anyone to break the rules. If you accept one persons bad conduct, you can't expect anyone else to obey any conduct limits either. If you allow one insult to pass by, you simply open the door to another ..... and another and it will just continue.

It HAS to be protested. If it isn't ....... it will continue. If one or a few protest and others just sit there and grin stupidly, and remark about how "entertaining" it is, then they too are part of the problem and hold no esteem for the group or the trade. One person may break rules and that's bad enough. But those that accept the fact that thoes rules are being broken and without objection, are just as bad as the violator. There is nothing so far that has been tested to keep the major perpetrator here, under some control. Lacking full support from everyone who regularly participates in this Newsgroup, it will remain as it is. In my opinion, those who don't have the courage to take a stand, have been, are, and will be the reason this group is not as successful as it could be. It is everyones job to put down disention. Otherwise chaos.

Hmmm, a very politically correct comment. We're ALL quite aware that the Newsgroup is more peacful now than when Bass is here instigating turmoil. Do you find it difficult to make that statement? You see, THAT'S exactly what I'm talking about. Can you think of any other reason that things are a little quiter now? Any other reason ..... at all? So many won't take the stand and thus it continues.

Take the stand. State your opinion and it'll be one more step closer to ending all of the garbage that has gone on here for years and years. It can be done only if all work in unison. Short of that, it will remain the same, if Bass does return.

Subject: Re: ASA re-visited Newsgroup: alt.security.alarms => Crash Gordon Some will not be able to resist starting up s*it when RLB returns...it'll be

If you'll kindly re-read the archives, you will find that it is almost *always* RLB that can't let s*it just drop.

Yea and of course YOU did nothing wrong eh?

Not everyone is prepared to continually turn the other cheek, only to get that slapped as well

Its been a long time, I hope all is well with you.

Doug L

Some of you might recognize my name from the archives, and even though it's been numerous years since I publicly posted to the group, some of you know that I've still been lurking in the shadows and answering questions by email directly. From my point of view, in order for the group to remain civil, there has always been just one thing that needed to be done by a poster before they hit the send button:

Realize that their customers, competitors, friends and family can see each and every one of their posts for the rest of eternity.

Now, put yourself in your customers, competitors, friends or families shoes and what would you think if you read that posts that have taken place. Although there have been key figures over the years that incited some of the madness, it takes two people in order to have a fight. If you were looking to purchase an alarm system and you read some of the past posts in the group, would you want to do business with yourself ?

What has taken place in the group isn't the responsibility of anyone, it isn't the fault of anyone and no one can control it. It takes everyone to keep the group civil. And if someone takes it upon themselves to attack someone else, whether it be directly or indirectly, it has to be ignored in order to prevent it from breaking down the civility of the group. That means no smart aleck remarks, no antagonistic comments, nothing. Just ignore it and continue on your business.

I wish you all the best in accomplishing this, I'll return to the shadows for now to see how it turns out.

Steve Ryckman

Here we go again....(sigh...)

I just find it interesting that a few think only Bass is at fault

I agree. It takes two to tango (or tangle, if you will) When confronted with vitriol it is best to be assertive. You may remember when our absent friend tried to start up with me over a joke I made about one of his grammatical glitches. I wouldn't take the bait but stuck to my guns (politely) and he gave it up.

Stick to the facts and the issues but don't resort to personal attacks.

Leave that to all those wise folks in Washington...

Steve Ryckman wrote:

Subject: Re: ASA re-visited Newsgroup: alt.security.alarms => Mark Leuck I just find it interesting that a few think only Bass is at fault

No you don't, you're just being you.

Note that I did say "mostly self-moderating." If there's an individual (or a few) whose behaviour leaves a bad taste, and those individuals are clearly ignored by other regulars, anyone who is coming into the group and lurk for a while will soon see which posters provide the quality content.

In some cases that will affect only whose advice they might follow, but in other cases it affects whose services they might hire. That easily becomes incentive for self-moderation.

I mean it in a broader sense than that: the culture of the group as a whole will settle into a state that is for the most part representative of the personalities which are found there (or at least the perception of those personalities that they present).

Read alt.os.linux.slackware for a few weeks if you're curious as to what can happen if the group is generally left to take its course. You might find the archives of the past year or two to be of particular interest, in examining how that group adjusts to "brief disturbances of its calm meditative state, as the pebble disturbs the stillness of the pond ..." (bonus points if you recognize the reference! :-)

That group has a number of regular posters, most of whom can be very helpful, though some may be perhaps opinionated, and none of whose intelligence or general knowledge of the topic can reasonably be brought into question. There are also some regulars whose contributions are more in the form of intelligent questions and an eagerness to learn.

There are also a small number of (for lack of any better term) net "kooks" on that group. Some show up only periodically and it doesn't take long before their colours show through whatever false front they resurfaced with, while others (one in particular) are completely unrelenting and obsessed.

Most of the others have long ago decided that they have much better things to do than to try and teach these social misfits how to fit into the "society" of the newsgroup. No one entering the group and reading their messages for the first time takes them seriously for very long.

It doesn't have to be that way. If there's only one "miscreant", let that person be perceived as they are presenting themselves. There isn't any reason to be dragged into the same place. If their message leave a bad taste in your experience, simply killfile their messages, ignore followups to them, and get on with the better things in your life.

I've seen that tried, and have yet to see it work. The best examples I can think of, among the newsgroups I read regularly, are rec.audio.pro and alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Both groups have a core set of regulars that spend a not insignificant amount of time subduing, chastising, and making it evident to each other that each other's conduct is unfit for the group and the profession.

I find both groups to be mostly unusable for serious information gathering because the "signal-to-noise ratio" just isn't high enough.

Contrast that with the alt.os.linux.slackware group, where the truly obsessed are mostly ignored, and otherwise the less frequent "offenders" are reminded (not always "in kind" thankfully) what the newsgroup is really intended for. It certainly isn't the Eutopia of Netnews, but I'm sure you'll find that the signal-to-noise ratio in that group is quite relatively high, and consequently the group is very useful when looking for information.

Now, on that note, I seem to have had very good timing coming into this group. I've found the signal-to-noise ratio to be one of the best among the groups I read, and that I've been able to get great information from the group. :-)

I'm going to have to take your word for that, as I haven't been participating in the group myself for longer than a few weeks. However, if you have the time and the inclination, I'd be interested in knowing your reaction after reading the other newsgroups I mentioned above.

At times they're all chaotic, but overall, the most chaotic are those where it seems that what you're proposing is being attempted (I might have said "exercised", but I doubt that the people involved are living up to what you would hope would happen here).

Does the newsgroup have a charter? If so, any conduct expectations should be laid out in the charter of the group, though even then, without moderation (which I'm not about to recommend) the only thing that anyone can do is to point an offender to the (periodically posted) charter, and to ignore a repeat offendor.

Any new agreements that are reached among the regulars of the group should be ammended to any existing charter. If there is no such charter, it might be worthwhile to draft one, and to gain support from the group membership to have it adopted as the group's charter.

Failing that, you can only count on people's desires to present a professional, knowledgeable image of themselves (which, frankly, should be incentive enough for the participants to maintain control of their behaviour).

No one has to take the bait if he does continue "it". If no one does, no chaos can ensue.

I do hope that you have the time to review the alt.os.linux.slackware archives. I'll be surprised if you have time to review it far enough and thoroughly enough to follow all the history that group has (in fact, I'm sure you'll find it to be mostly a waste of time unless you have personal interest in Slackware Linux yourself), but your statement above reminds me of one of the "periodic" types I mentioned above.

In that case, it became apparent the individual involved seems to have "other" motives for attempting to clean up the chaotic behaviour in the group, which I'm not suggesting is the case here, but rather that you should keep in mind that it may begin to appear that way to others.

I would disagree, from my experience on other newsgroups. What I've seen suggests that chaos ensues when someone attempts to "correct" someone else's behaviour, but if no one says anything at all about it, it's left with just one (or a small number of) poster(s) providing a very clear, very unprofessional and not credible image of themselves.

Not even that. We need to not let newsgroup matters become personal.

If I disagree with something you say (or anyone else), it's up to me to point out my disagreement in such a way that does not turn the discussion into a personal attack. If I can't do that, then my disagreement isn't going to be very credible, and it will become obvious if I have to resort to personal attacks just to try and "be heard" above logic and reasoning.

Now that's a lot to say for someone who has come into the group only a small number of weeks ago and not researched the archives for the type of traffic that you're hoping to eliminate. However, I feel quite confident that the experience I lack in this group in particular, I generally make up for in other groups which may be of different topics, but have plenty in common with the nature and intent of alt.security.alarms. I hope you will consider what I've written.