pir false alarms

It is not "normal" for all three PIR detectors to fail after a short time. Flies rarely cause problems. A spider could be the culprit in some circumstances, but rarely in 3 separate detectors. However, the real problem here is that the installer should have honored the warranty.

It could be. Were these wired or wireless snsors? Are there other sensors in the system?

Yes. Refuse to pay for replacement of merchandise which is still under warranty. Tell the installer tht if he insists on payment you will switch to another alarm company.

Which "warranty"? If the "installer honoured the warranty", he would have replaced the sensors with exactly the same units that malfunctioned (as the manufacturer would honour the warranty to the Dealer). He would still have charged for the service call. The customer would then be facing another false alarm problem two and a half years down the road.

He's provided the make and model number of the detectors.

You're an idiot, Bass. The warranty in this instance applies to the original equipment which was upgraded to dual-tecs (and not the labour). Replacing the original equipment is not an option if (as it's already demonstrated) it's subject to false alarms after 2 and a half years. The customer may be able to pursue a warranty claim against the cost of the dual-tecs (you have to keep in mind they're more expensive than the units that were first installed). This will mean a "credit" against the cost of the dual-tecs. Being confrontational with his dealer is NOT going to solve his problem. He will still be subject to the terms of his contract and the dealer's installation warranty (which requires him to pay for non-warranty or out-of-warranty service and is entirely separate from the manufacturer's warranty).

Which brings up a valid question. What would you do in this instance? Let's say this customer purchased the PIR's from you and they all started falsing after two and a half years. What would he have to do to obtain "warranty service" from you? And what would you provide in the way of "service" (that is if the customer can actually contact you)? What will this "warranty service" cost him? Will he have to pay for shipping? Would he have to return the units in their original packaging (even after two and a half years), or would you just send him out replacement PIR's and credit him the cost of units that were falsing?

You're wrong again, as usual.

The warranty from the dealer is one year. The client is likely under contract with the alarm company. The factory warranty does not include shipping, and labor and besides, why would the client want the same units back if they're causing a problem?

Must be time for you to go for another treatment.

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet.

Strong radio frequency signals can sometime cause sensors to trip. Do you have any RF souces in your home or do some neighbors? Taxi cabs, police cars etc can sometimes cause problems.

See if you can figure out when ( time of the year) (time of the day) false alarms occured. If you've changed window coverings, sometimes the angle of the sun at certain times of the year can shine directly into motion detectors ..... reflect off of objects in a room ..... heat up glass which can rapidly cool ....... or if you've changed houshold heating system or moved objects that now allow hot air to flow past the PIR's.

Obviously, dual technology sensors will help reduce these things from affecting sensors.

You really don't want to know. If you read his "warranty" page, it's "chaulker-block full" of conditions and provisos. The customer will have to pay to ship the defective product back, but not to Bass. It has to go back to the originating drop-shipper. It's their "call" as to whether-or-not it goes to the manufacturer from there. I imagine that rarely happens as "end users" (DIY) aren't qualified installers (in most instances). If they accidentally hook up a keypad or detector Bass-ackwards all bets are off, where-as if an installer does, he's gotta dig up a spare from his own company's stock and the company has to take the "hit". The other thing is that if the DIY hooks up any device to power, it's ineligible for return (his thirty day money back "no hassle" guarantee is also "chaulker-block full" of conditions). If you order the wrong cable (for instance), or the wrong camera, lens, or commercial fire alarm component, you're "SOL" (and stuck with it). I suppose you could try re-selling it on "eBay".

Have you seen his latest BBB report? Twenty-five complaints in three years and I'll bet an equal number have dropped off due to report aging.

This was along the lines of my first thought: if the original sensor was swapped out, even with an identical one, and the problem repeated within the same day, then the problem is clearly not with the sensor itself - there's either a wiring fault, or the "brain" of the alarm is failing.

I didn't think of RFI, but that would certainly explain the problem occuring in other sensors/zones. One test I would have performed as well would have been to leave the first offending line with NO sensor on it for a couple days to see if that line triggers again (which of course, would determine or rule a wiring or brain fault).

Seconded as well. Unfortunately the OP doesn't mention the relative positions of the three sensors to each other - are they in different rooms, on different floors, etc.? Is this a home, an office area, a warehouse? More details like this would help the "remote troubleshooting".

There is that as well.

Bottom line, from what we're told here, it sounds like the "installer" that put in the new sensors really didn't do very thorough troubleshooting - the failure on the other sensors after replacing the first should have been an indication right away that something else was wrong. Who knows, maybe the chance to sell the OP his new "fancy" sensors was incentive not to dig too deeply into the real cause of the problem.

I hate to agree with Bass here, but I wouldn't pay the installer either - he hasn't solved the problem, he's just sold the OP snake oil.

That's a valid consideration in many cases. However, with 3 separate detectors falsing, it's not very likely. Possible, but not likely.

Although air from the HVAC system can cause a light weight object (loose paper or one of those infamous balloons) to move, triggering a PIR, it's not likely to have caused problems with three separate PIRs. Also, there's a commonly held misconception about PIRs. Warm or cool air moving past the detectors won't trip them. If the air is actually hitting the detector it can sometimes trigger a false alarm. But the detector can't "see" air moving across in front of it.

Because this system was in place for more than one year without problems and because there are problems in three separate zones, I doubt that the HVAC system is at fault. Given the information available, the most likely cause would be a bad panel or a bad RF receiver (if the detectors happen to be wireless).

could also be aux power related...and mess of other things.

"Matt Ion" wrote in message news:b4f9h.355932$R63.301753@pd7urf1no... | Jim wrote: | > joble snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote: | >

| >>Hi, | >>

| >>we have an alarm for 2,5 years now. It is a Rokonet system. The PIR | >>detector's used are Pyronix Magnum Ultra. | >>

| >>It worked fine for more than 2 years, but last summer we had false | >>alarms almost once per week. Always on the same sensor. Sensor was | >>replaced by the installer, but next night there was again a false | >>alarm. | >>

| >>The Pir is now replaced by a dual detector, and this detector seems to | >>work well. | >>

| >>The next week we had false alarms with both the two other PIR's. So | >>they are also replaces by dual's. | >>

| >>Now it has worked fine for 3 months. But the installer sends us a bill | >>for the replacement of the first detector. And i think another bill for | >>the two others will follow. Together this is the 25% of the price of | >>the system! I do not think this is normal after 2,5 years. (The | >>warranty of the system is 1 year, but on the pyronix site i read the | >>pir detectors come with 5 years of warranty) | >>

| >>

| >>I want to argue with the installer but first i want to learn more about | >>the problem. So i have some questions: | >>

| >>Is it possible that a fly triggers the pir? | >>Can this problem be due to bad adjustment of the pir or the use of the | >>wrong lenses? | >>Can the reason be in the rokonet system instead of in the PIR's? | >>Any other ideas??? | >>

| >>

| >>Thanks in advance... | >

| >

| > A couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet. | >

| > Strong radio frequency signals can sometime cause sensors to trip. Do | > you have any RF souces in your home or do some neighbors? Taxi cabs, | > police cars etc can sometimes cause problems. | | This was along the lines of my first thought: if the original sensor was swapped | out, even with an identical one, and the problem repeated within the same day, | then the problem is clearly not with the sensor itself - there's either a wiring | fault, or the "brain" of the alarm is failing. | | I didn't think of RFI, but that would certainly explain the problem occuring in | other sensors/zones. One test I would have performed as well would have been to | leave the first offending line with NO sensor on it for a couple days to see if | that line triggers again (which of course, would determine or rule a wiring or | brain fault). | | > See if you can figure out when ( time of the year) (time of the day) | > false alarms occured. If you've changed window coverings, sometimes the | > angle of the sun at certain times of the year can shine directly into | > motion detectors ..... reflect off of objects in a room ..... heat up | > glass which can rapidly cool ....... or if you've changed houshold | > heating system or moved objects that now allow hot air to flow past the | > PIR's. | | Seconded as well. Unfortunately the OP doesn't mention the relative positions | of the three sensors to each other - are they in different rooms, on different | floors, etc.? Is this a home, an office area, a warehouse? More details like | this would help the "remote troubleshooting". | | > Obviously, dual technology sensors will help reduce these things from | > affecting sensors. | | There is that as well. | | Bottom line, from what we're told here, it sounds like the "installer" that put | in the new sensors really didn't do very thorough troubleshooting - the failure | on the other sensors after replacing the first should have been an indication | right away that something else was wrong. Who knows, maybe the chance to sell | the OP his new "fancy" sensors was incentive not to dig too deeply into the real | cause of the problem. | | I hate to agree with Bass here, but I wouldn't pay the installer either - he | hasn't solved the problem, he's just sold the OP snake oil.

detectors falsing, it's not very likely. Possible, but not

Why don't you tell us exactly where the three motion detectors are mounted? Which direction are they facing? What part of the room are they mounted?

Hmmmm Don't know? Then your wrong in your biased assumption.

or one of those infamous balloons) to move,

Why don't you tell us exactly where the three motion detectors are mounted? Which direction are they facing? What part of the room are they mounted?

Hmmmm Don't know? Then your wrong in your biased assumption.

the air is actually hitting the detector it can

across in front of it.

Which proves that you obvioulsy have no experience what-so-ever installing alarm systems.

In a cool room, when heat is quickly released in front of a Passive infrared motion detector, it will likely trip. In the same manner, when window glass, heated by the sun on a hot day, is rapidly cooled by fast moving clouds, or a lawnsprinkler system, it can trip a PIR. An electric heater, starting up in range of a PIR, will trip the unit. And in all of these instances, there is no heat "hitting" the PIR. I know because I actually install alarm systems for a living for over 36years. When is the last time you actually installed anything having to do with alarm systems? 10 years? 15? Why don't you sit down, shut up. Stop trolling and go get another treatment, for as much good it will do you.

because there are problems in three separate zones, I

Please tell us how you know if there was or wasn't an HVAC system installed recently or a change in heating systems. You don't know and neither do I. .... it's simply a possible cause of the problem.

What an idiot you are.

If it was the panel or a reciever ......tell us ...... why is it that the dual tech motions cured the problem?

detectors falsing, it's not very likely. Possible, but not

Far be it from me to jump to Bass's defence, but Jim, you're just being an ass.

Bass is correct: with three different sensors falsing, unless they're all mounted very close together, a change of window coverings, HVAC system, etc. are, in fact, are not a LIKELY cause.

Possible, yes; likely, no. That's all he said.

We don't know that they've CURED the problem... they may have simply masked a symptom. From the OP's story, we don't evne know how long they've been in, let alone how long they'll keep working properly, or if the problem will re-appear.

Interesting. I did read up on the warranty links you sent me, thanks. I have a feeling that a number of the complaints filed against Bass may have to do with the fact that his customers don't read well (and if that's the case, how they expect to be able to install and program a panel like "Napco", "Ademco", or "DSC" is beyond me). For one thing, the only thing Bass has demonstrated any real expertise in, is bullshitting.

I used to keep track, but I lost interest.

Matt, you're absoluetly right.

Let it be far FAR from you to jump to this f****ng assholes defense.

As far as me acting like an ass, I think that has already been determined. If you've got any issues with what I do, you'd damn well better have issues with that fat dying son of a bitch too who has acted like an asshole in Usenet for years and consider why I treat him like the picece of shit he is.

You might also consider that there was no reason for him to post his picayune comments in response to my well intentioned post to begin with and likewise the same goes for you.

Oh yes, I almost forgot to mention. You don't run things here. If you don't like what goes on here, you're welcome to leave. You're also welcome to thank Bass for that attitude too. If he can f*ck up this Newsgroup, so can anyone ................ aint that a bitch...........

Consider Matt .................... that all I was saying is that if the OP changed window coverings in his home ........... HIS ENTIRE HOME .............. why wouldn't it be likely, possible, plausable, reasonable, conceivable to think that all three motion detectors, maybe, might, could be, would be............... affected?

GET IT?

or a bad RF

Yeah .... for all we know in 5 or 10 years, it could show up again .... or even tomorrow. But that has no bearing, what-so-ever on the fact that changing the detectors wouldn't have made any difference if there was a bad receiver or panel. GET IT?

Jeeeeeeze, Matt, If you're going to pick something to defend, that the asshole said, at least pick something plausable. I didn't see you defending his erroneous postulation that a PIR will not trip if the air temperature within it's range changes rapidly.

or a bad RF

Feel better now?

Or are you trying to give yourself a stroke?

Jiminex is categorically wrong. The detector doesn't *see* air temperature. When warm (or cool) air moves across in front of the detector without touching it and without heating or moving a visible object, the detector is unaffected. Jiminex is confused by the difference between air movement in view of the detector and air *striking* the detector. The latter can easily trip many PIR detectors. That is one of the reasons it is important to seal the wire entry hole in a PIR. But it is not a problem unless the air current hits an object within the detector's field of view or the detector itself.

temperature. When warm (or cool) air moves across in front of the

object, the detector is unaffected. Jiminex is confused by the

the detector. The latter can easily trip many PIR

entry hole in a PIR.

After reading this I don't think Jim's the one thats confused, you apparently know nothing about PIR's

Apparently I know more about them than you and Jiminex combined. You spend all your time programming alarms by modem. I spent more than two decades installing and servicing them.

When warm air moves in front of a motion it will indeed be detected which is why it is good installation policy not to point one at a heating/air conditioning vent. This is far more important than sealing holes in the PIR itself although who knows how you explain installing a motion to your clients, apparently it involves mounting the PIR away from a wall.

Much like your knowledge of Frank you have no idea what I do

IR radiation is naturally ocurring and its sources are everywhere. Now you have introduced facts not in evidence to blame someone not posting to defend his or her position. You have followed the same schema in your post that you have blamed on the installer as faulty and you have not solved the problem either. The circuits in a PIR detector are for the most part pyrolytic element(s) with a delta t and delta T circuit. where t=temperature and T=time. I have had courses in physics. I detect pure physics genius in your post. I hope we can enjoy a through discussion from you on the vibrational energy transfer and reaction of vibrationally excited molecules at surfaces. Please preface your remarks with your CV and all of the academic credentials you have garnered. Or instead say it is nearly imposible to figure out who or what is to blame from the very limited information available. The customer is upset over a bill and doesn't want to pay it most likely, and that is more the focus of his question. He has not been cheated in any way I can detect from the information given. And where does this selling the customer "fancy" dual tech units come from? That is what most people I know in the trade offer exclusively unless there is an extremely stable environment combined with panel or other power issues. If you install a bottom feeder panel like Rokonet with another bottom feeder single tech motion and get only one pop in 2.5 years I'd say the installer obviously did a great job with very limited resources.

Hey Jim, does this Matt guy do any real work in this industry?

"Matt Ion" wrote in message news:b4f9h.355932$R63.301753@pd7urf1no...

Only if it heats (or cools) the detector itself. Air moving past but not directly contacting the detector and not heating an object in the FOV will not change the amount of IR striking the transducer.

Wrong again. The reason you shouldn't aim a PIR at a heating vent is the vent itself and surfaces nearby can change temperature rapidly.

It is important not to point the detector at a heat source, but you misunderstand the reason why. As to sealing the wiring hole, that is simply good practice. It helps keep drafts and bugs out of the detector.

I know that like Olson, you're a BS artist with less field experience than most here except perhaps the idiot Petem.