X10 replacement?

Hello Rick,

So far I haven't seen anything to wrote home about.

X10 is a poor protocol and old. However, if only the receivers would be designed right it could perform a whole lot better. Just a few examples:

The input filter, if, ahem, that can be called a filter, has the passband slope of a barn door. It's really no big deal to fix that.

A simple AM detector over the whole passband doesn't cut it. That probably is why the sensitivity has been kept so poor. A I/Q detector followed by a nifty "seek, catch and track" locking could improve this big time while still being able to track older transmitting devices where the frequency setting is sloppy (allowing +/- whatever kilohertz from 120kHz).

Vendors have to grow up and realize that people are using compact fluorescents. The old dimmable wall switch modules don't cut it anymore and there needs to be a low cost replacement, not just by a few luxury brands.

This and a lot more can be fixed to make X10 acceptable for use by non-engineers. IOW by people who simply won't know what's happening or what to do when the hallway lamp won't turn off anymore. The stuff needs to make it into the Lowe's and Home Depots of America, else it's always going to be a niche product.

AFAICT I don't see such improvements happening.

Oh, and the X10 site needs to lose that nasty popup stuff. To me (and certainly lots of others) that looks unprofessional.

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Cheap to start, is not the same as cheap to do all the fancy stuff. And Joerg says X10 could be all of those, if they would only listen to him... ;-)

You're right that I'm asking for the ultimate, and any real world solution will have compromises. If there was an obvious answer I think I would have heard about it.

But that said, what is the state of the market today? Who gets closest?

RickR

Dave Houst> I think your criteria "cheap, flexible, reliable" are pretty much mutually

X-10 has donme fairly well for about 30 years without listening to Joerg or anyone else.

I think Insteon gets closest as far as light/appliance control in terms of a reliable PLC protocol. And their prices are competitive with X-10 but it remains to be seen whether they can deliver acceptable quality at those prices. The fact that obvious and easily fixed design flaws have been carried over from earlier designs is worrisome. And I don't recall seeing anything to indicate they plan to do AV or security.

Homeplug AV purports to do multiple simultaneous HD video streams over the powerlines but I've yet to read a convincing real world review.

Some security systems have Insteon interfaces so your best bet is to look at doing your own integration.

I've never thought that AV and security should be integrated with light/appliance control at the hardware level. AV requires some heavy computing power while the others can be done with simple, inexpensive harware. Security really needs to be a standalone function for reliability and liability reasons. After all the only reason to have a security system is to get a discount on your insurance - it will not deter the typical burglar.

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Hello Dave,

But how much better could it have done if the receivers were designed well?

...

"Designed well" comes with a significant cost disadvantage. For what X10 components cost, "designed adequately" has always been sufficient for my wallet.

From what I've read in this newsgroup, more expensive X10 compatible components don't always perform in a manner that justifies the higher prices.

Hello Jack,

If they work, that is. We know a lot of people around here and the number of households other than ours that have X10 is zero. A few folks have tried and their response to my question was "It doesn't work".

The suggestions I made can mostly be implemented without increasing cost. Sure, they'd possibly have to use a more modern micro controller but that doesn't mean a cost penalty. Plus maybe one FET and a few resistors in order to provide some kind of 120kHz selectivity but that can be had for around 5c in quantities. If absolutely necessary it could be done with a regular NPN transistor for less.

True, especially since some of the varieties sold under the "pro" label don't seem to differ from regular ones except in price.

Depends on the security system. I think mine will do more than deter a typical burgler. I never asked for a discount on insurance.

FBI statistics show that most residential burglaries occur in early afternoon - the time of day the residences are most likely vacant.

Interviews with burglars serving prison sentences show that they know they can be in and out and long gone before there's any response to an alarm. Their time on-site is usually on the order of 10-15 minutes, tops. The only deterrent is a dog _INSIDE_ the residence as they do not want to be attacked by a vicious dog. They view an occasional prison term as a "cost of doing business".

Nationwide, about 95% of alarms are false so police agencies largely ignore them.

Unless your "security system" does something to change these fundamental facts, it's unlikely that it improves your security although it will improve the financial security of the fearmonger (i.e. security specialist) who sold it to you.

If you're talking about other, non-security related features of your "security system" then you are not speaking to the question. There are usually less expensive ways to handle the non-security related features.

If your "security system" is UL approved and your insurnce company offers a discount for UL approved security systems and you have not taken the discount, then you apparently have more money than brains.

If you're talking about guns, I think you'll find there are more people killed inside their residences by intruders using the resident's own guns than there are dead burglars shot by vigilant residents.

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Hello Dave,

Got that covered here. A rottie and a shepherd. An outside dog can also be a deterrent if the burglar doesn't know whether or not there is a doggie door.

[...]

Or a kid gets hold of a loaded weapon. Just happened again here. 14-year old found gun, played with it, BANG, bullet went through wall into street and killed the driver of a car that passed by.

Good points,

I'm not sure what I'll want to do in the future, and I think most folks are in the same boat. I mentioned AV & security because they are similar systems doing related work.

After all having lights respond to security triggers can be a simple convenience (driveway lights, entry way...) or a deterrent (imitating real activity, exterior flood lights, flashing lights...). AV systems can set the lighting just right, close blinds, etc.

RickR

Dave Houst> I've never thought that AV and security should be integrated with

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The primary function of my alarm system is to give me a few moments advance notice that I'm under attack! Could mean the difference between lilfe and death - for me - or the burglar.

I do receive a discount on my insurance, but that's a bonus.

Nick Hull wrote:

Hi Rick - I would encourage you to look into the Elk M1G. Unfortunately it is in that $500 range, but it gives you more bang for the buck than anything else I know of for a cross-platform system.

It is basically a capable security system with some good HA features. Because Scty and HA are from the same unit it is simple to control lighting etc. when security events happen. An example is at night if a vehicle enters my drive (by > 50') the normally dim front lights come up to full brightness for 10 minutes. If the fire alarm trips, the furnace is shut down. If an intrusion is detected while we're sleeping, lights come on all through the house, but not in my bedroom - don't want the intruder seeing ME. All of this type stuff can be done by the M1G itself. In addition, the M1G can do x10, Insteon, UPB, etc. A great core system.

Just a satisfied user - no financial stake in Elk.

John

RickR wrote:

Nobody pays retail. I switched to Radio RA two years ago and it's be WONDERFUL. Lights that work every time! Woo hoo! I've still got some X-10 infrared sensors and their receivers but nothing else X-10.

X-10's just the shit that stuck and couldn't be peeled off the wall. It's not "better" it's more that the home automation market really doesn't exist in any decent quantities to make it worthwhile to do it "better". Sad but true.

As always, the rule of three applies: good, fast, cheap... pick two. Radio RA's been good and fast but certainly wasn't cheap. Cripes, X-10's no good, not fast and only has CHEAP going for it.

Hello Bill,

It is the old chicken and egg problem. If the reliability is so poor that only engineers can make it work then there will never be any market penetration to speak of. One has to front the cost for a good design to have a chance of reaching a meaningful market penetration. Not listening to constructive criticism by users is pretty much a guarantee to never get there.

Fast isn't necessary with X10. Good and cheap can go together. It's my daily bread to make products that are cost efficient but squeeze the last dime out of a design. Mostly disposable medical but the basic concepts aren't that different.

I think I wonder where you got that info - care to quote some figures and sources?

"When someone is home, a gun is used for protection in fewer than two percent of home invasion crimes." Kellermann AL., Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995.

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Kellerman's JAMA articles are scarcely an unbiased source. He is rabidly anti gun, who IIRC has been discredited.

The reality is that there can never be a good number of how successful guns in the home or carried are since there is no way to collect stats on when display is sufficient to scare off a perp. The anti gun bigots will say it never happens, the gun nuts say it happens all the time (yes I dissed both sides). The reality is somewhere in between. An example would be an incident I witnessed where the sound of a shotgun action being cycled caused

3 potential perps to depart. It never was reported...

Or --

1)as ACT-Solutions showed in 1999 with the AT001 6v p-p A10/X-10 transmitter, , and

2)a few years later with ACT's T-103 and similar transmitters with their husky power transformers, and

3)which in turn were physically emulated and extended in concept to any X-10 transmitter by the XTB in-line amplifier in 2006

-- if they had introduced better/ more powerful transmitters ? ;-)

... Marc Marc_F_Hult