X10 replacement?

Hello Marc,

Good point. Can someone tell the Zigbee guys that?

Pretty much anything RF quits here in the garage and lab. For example, we can see the cell tower and out on the deck we can get all the bars and then some. Walk inside and in certain areas the display will say "not in service area".

Hello Neil,

Ask one if you see them parked at a diner. I bet it's the usual. 99.9% surround sound systems and 0.01% HA. And what is considered HA may not be what this NG thinks it is. The local extreme a few years ago: Not a house network or anything but there was that magic button next to the bed in the master bedroom. Press it and the sliding door opens. Then the bed begins to move until it has arrived on the deck, closing the sliding door behind it. Now you have a view of Folsom Lake and the stars. Oh, and don't press that button in January...

> META&CNTKEY=misc%2FsearchResults.jsp&N=2984&keyword=insteon&x=34&y=10

According to the October hard-copy issue of Security Systems News, Home Depot Canada has just signed a deal with security company VOXCOM to have HD Canada's 140 Installation Services Departments install VOXCOM security systems and provide monitoring for systems sold in the stores.

Applying this model to HA in general is harder. A standalone security system is much harder to 'break' than open-architecture (eg) HA lighting systems.

But it does provide the front-aisle retail product visibility that Joerg states as a prerequisite and liberates the consumer from the technical challenges involved in initial installation.

Maintenance is a whole 'nuther matter akin to home PC installation and subsequent use and maintenance. Home Depot and Worst Buy to merge ?

...Marc Marc_F_Hult

This is the sort of self-indulgent know-nothing, trolling that diminishes the value of usenet and,in extremis, can cost lives.

A powerful reason to install one of the security systems mentioned in this newsgroup (ELk MG1, HAI Omni, Stargate, Ademco, Napco, Caddx, etc) is that they also the ability to add smoke detectors and so also have the capability of reducing loss of life and property from fire and smoke.

That is part and parcel of the reason for the insurance discount that has nothing at all to do with theft-loss reduction.

Dave's other assertion that it "will not deter the typical burglar is (purposefully ?) misleading because it has been well demonstrated in US and UK that a security system reduces the _amount_ of the per-incident loss by theft.

A security 'system' should include a layered strategy. Discouraging folks from installing a major component of a layered approach is not helpful in my opinion. Video monitoring has become integral to virtually all serious security systems. Bad guys don't like being on camera.

As one of many examples of mutually supporting approaches to theft reduction, a 'lock box' by itself won't deter the burglar who has all the time needed to enter/remove it. But it is less likely that s/he will get what's in a properly installed 'lock box' if an alarm is wailing and the police notified and video cameras rolling.

And the concept of "lock box' extends beyond the traditional 'safe'. For example, each piece of visible AV gear in my house is secured to a rack by tamper-resistant screws and other tricks. The whole rack is too heavy to easily carry.

(FWIW, I testified in court against the last dude who broke into our house. I got my stereo gear back and he's doing 18 years without parole. )

Don't let self-indulgent usenet trolls mislead you into being the next victim with significant losses.

In particular, _do_ install a security system if only for the fire-protection aspects.

Around 7PM on Christmas eve a few years back, a candle placed too near a smoke detector in our home triggered the fire alarm. Before I was able to call in the false alarm to the monitoring company, they had notified the local fire department. After the monitoring company informed the fire department that it had been _reported_ as a false alarm, they recalled the trucks but still sent an officer in a car. Had it been a real fire, the prompt response would have saved in the insurance $ and possibly lives.

This in a town in which ~18% live below US poverty line, in other words, not an expensive suburb.

I submit that for many US homes, the single most important HA improvement is a monitored, preferably hard-wired, intrusion and fire system.

.. Marc Marc_F_Hult

Bad implied advice contradicted by substantial research.

"Alarms are considered complementary to other security precautions; that is, no other precaution has the deterring power of the alarm. The alarm reduces the chance of burglary 66.2 percent when three or more precautions are taken by the homeowner."

"Another benefit of an alarm concerns the value of the property stolen. Average loss from burglary is $3,266 when there is an alarm and $5,343 when there is no alarm. When an alarm is present, the burglar is limited in the time he can spend on the premises."

"Unalarmed homes valued at more than $600,000 have as much as 5.5 times the burglary risk of alarmed houses with the same value. "

"Nationally [UK] Nationally, 15% of households without security measures were burgled in 1997, compared with 4% of households with basic measures in place and 3% with higher level security (Budd, 1999).

and on and on..

The advent of video security has further increased the difference in risk and loss between homes with systems and those without.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

I've recommended and installed a couple dozen X10 systems, 10-20 years ago. (My expertise is lighting and controls are an important part.)

Lots of times they just worked. Everyone was happy! But, before even recommending it to the owner I had to look carefully at the job and try to predict the problems. That level of insecurity from a pro just does't sit well. I'm not interested in taking the risk, and don't even consider X10 for clients.

Have you ever had a call at midnight because a clients house was flashing on/off like an ammusment ride? I have and that was with a big name ($) HA system.

What all homeowners and business people want is assurance that it will work. Fixing it later is still counted as a loss!

RickR

Jeff Volp wrote:

HA is understood by the public.

Everyone has heard the term "Smart House," there are movies and lots of TV shows have push-button moment in the big boss's office or home.

The impression is that it is $$$ to the max, too technical to understand (that's the WOW factor) and possibly a trap.

Joerg wrote:

Hello Rick,

Understood? None of the guys I talked to about HA had a clue how it worked or what it could really do in detail. None of them knew any brands, where to get it or who would install it. Sorry, but I do not consider that "understood".

Wasn't there this home that one of the TV "Mr.Builder" guys built where the new owner had to tear all the HA stuff out? Don't remember the exact story but it was in the papers years ago. AFAIR they had to tear down most of the drywall because there were no individual cable runs to the lights etc. IOW not enough cabling resources for a "normal" wiring.

All that is just the problem;

1. The goal is understood. (A button for every need and automatic if it can be...)
2. The how is understood to be too difficult, even for the "experts" and expensive! Thats the trap part.

RickR

Joerg wrote: