Better transmitters and Jeff Volp's XTB strategy should certainly also be part of the game. But even then it is a rather brazen assumption that the loss along a power line would be less than 40dB or that the noise won't swamp everything, unless there is a proper passband filter. One that is only a few kHz wide and not tens of kHz. Many times X10 works ok, other times it doesn't. The worst case is when it sometimes does and then quits. That drives ordinary customers nuts, especially when they do not understand why.
At the transmitter end, and at the receiver end, there are low-current improvements that are practical in part because they involve physically small devices with concomitantly manageable costs. Here, the filters only need to pass the signal. not, generally, high current. And if they do, the current may be reduced (eg 5 amps as in a wall-wart filter) compared to the in-wall AC distribution lines (15, 20, 30 amps).
As soon as one moves from the device level to the realm of permanently installed transmission medium which in US and Canada, is 110VAC is subject to electrical codes that (for permanently installed components of the transmission system) require a *minimum* 15 amp current-handling capability) the problem becomes quantitatively much different.
How does one make a (c)UL-listed, low cost, 15+ amp, 120khz, multi-pole notch or bandpass filter ? If one can't, then the notion that robust distributed X-10 can be low cost is myth.
Lightolier introduced the concept and sold the Compose PLC (X-10) system based on large, expensive hardware to filter and segment the home AC distribution.
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It was (see this thread's subject) an evolutionary "X10 replacement".
My limited perspective is that it seems to have had a short run in the marketplace and then seems to have mostly declined. I don't have any experience with it. Maybe someone in c.h.a else does and can pipe up.
It also drives folks who _do_ understand to rip it up and install something "more reliable" (whatever that might mean ;-) Knowing that and *why* something doesn't work can also be a powerful driver to removing it. Depends in part on one's mindset. Thanks for the cogent discussion ... Marc Marc_F_Hult
The X10 designers, I would think. Between 50mV and 100mV most modules typically quit receiving. Even if the transmitter is able to inject
120kHz at 5V against the low line impedance that's still less than 40dB of headroom.
Just a few rough ideas:
There are several methods. A simple one would be to use a regular LC circuit like now but couple it way more loosely so it runs at a much higher Q. This also means the receiver input must be of high impedance. The noise figure isn't important in this application. No problem to get that bandwidth down to a few kHz. This will already be a whole lot better than today's typical 120kHz "filter". Problem is you can't drive the Q too high. While it isn't a really big deal to build and align a
120kHz circuit with a bandwidth of less than 1kHz there are, unfortunately, legacy transmitting devices of rather sloppy build that don't transmit on exactly 120kHz. The installed base just can't be ignored, else consumers would bring it all back and say that it does not work. The store clerks cannot be expected to understand the underlying problems here, let alone explain them to the customer.
Another method is down-conversion to baseband. Either by mixing with
120kHz and full I/Q detection or by mixing with, say, 123kHz or so and demodulating only the lower sideband. Now a simple zero-crossing gated FFT would constantly run and the micro controller has to watch all it's bins. Only if it finds a bin where the signal clearly "sticks out" would it assume that a valid X10 transmission is occurring and latch onto that frequency. Both methods can be done rather cheaply. The challenge is that it must be realized with "jelly-bean" parts and a micro controller that costs well under $1 in quantities. DSPs could do all this directly at 120kHz but they are way out of price range here, at least for the time being.
There are a few more esoteric methods such as a sweeping mixer. The uC watches and the sweep function slams on the brakes the instant a signal is detected and regulates into the maximum. One would have to take a close look at the protocol to see if there is enough expendable prelude for that. But whatever is done, it has to be cheap and a lot better than what we have today.
The receive filter does not need to carry the full 15A or 20A here. Of course, much of the above requires a thorough understanding and application of "lean" filter algorithms. A cheap micro isn't a rocket. It's more like a moped in terms of math horsepower so one would have to employ techniques such as the wave digital filter. Seems like much of that is a lost art at least with younger EE grads.
As to UL, that's a matter of proper sales forecasting. I do this kind of mixed-signal processing all the time for a living and a full UL cert typically runs into several $10k. More in my cases because it's medical so it also needs to be tested to IEC601-1. All this needs to be amortized over several years of sales, just like the costs for a redesign.
It doesn't have to retail at $12.99 a pop. $19.99 is usually the magic threshold beyond which consumers become a bit hesitant. As long as those extra $7 buy a substantial reliability improvement I believe this could fly.
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That link didn't work but the Lightolier site is still up. For controls it points to this site:
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Sure. But most of the folks who'd buy this are also married ;-)
If I came home with $1000 worth of stuff and tell her that it'll (hopefully) work better than this X10 I'd be read the riot act...
I'm enjoying it as well. Here's hoping that some day the manufacturers of HA listen and be open for such discussions. In my world of medical electronics at least the smaller companies do.
Exactly! As in, "$19.9x is _exactly_ the cost of an INSTEON ICON dimmer" !
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Works for me.
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Trick is to combine your house and *non-toy* HA infrastructure investment in the same mortgage. In that context, $1K is below noise threshold in the price range for median US/Canadian/European homes.
If it works reliably that would be a deal. However, to be honest it'll be an uphill battle. First, it needs to pass muster in communities like this newsgroup. Then it has to remedy the perception with many potential customers that HA "doesn't work" because all they were exposed to was X10 and that often didn't work.
Also, I strongly believe that any new stuff must be available through hardware stores. X10 mostly wasn't and that's IMHO one of the reasons for its low market penetration.
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If is is 100% reliable I agree, at least for upscale homes. However, in the retrofit market there must be a lower entry level. Plus a pathway to operate legacy stuff (X10) through Insteon. It will be very tough to convince someone to toss $300+ of accumulated X10 gear on the promise that it'll be better. Now if you could say "hey, you can keep using the old stuff for a while but you'll see the difference in reliablity" that would be a strategy that could work.
X-10 stooped being sold at retail outlets because when it was, it generated too many returns.
FWIW, INSTEON is currently available at Home Depot
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It's beginning to sound like you work for SmartLabs sales on the side :-)
We haven't bought a new car in 19 years. We buy used ones with 70-90K miles and drive them another 80-100K. These cars are "reliable" enough for our purposes -- certainly *much* more reliable than X-10 on an absolute work/don't-work basis.
With the money saved, I could throw away $300 of X-10 every month. Depends on priorities. My point of reference is a 1956 VW bug. All cars on the road today seem !fantastic! compared to that reference. I never look at new cars so like the first President Bush who marveled at the scanner at the grocery checkout counter a decade after they were everywhere, I'm still thrilled with them new fangled electric windows. We got air conditioning in the new (used) car in Spain (where it gets very hot) for the first time this year. Depends on priorities and personal preferences.
Interesting. Ours doesn't have it but next time I'll ask whether they can order starter kits etc. Prices that I've seen elsewhere were a bit steep, like $39.99 for a light switch relay. Don't know if that'll fly with the average consumer and those are the guys who need to be convinced. We'll see.
No :-)
But I think they need a little shot in the arm to market this stuff. Merely placing it onto the shelves isn't enough to push a new technology. You know, the usual: Couple goes shopping on Saturday. Wife can't decide on a few clothing items, husband rolls his eyes. To avoid any discontent he vows to disappear for an hour and walks over to Home Depot. That's where the opportunity is but it would have to be something eye-catching. For example, a large piece of plywood with a few Insteon modules, Romex in between, a Lexan cover and some buttons to play with. Smack dab at the start of the electrical aisle.
Also, I hope that this time they had the right engineering talent on board. It absolutely has to work. No weak signal issues and definitely no dirty resets or software hang-ups.
Same here. The only reason we bought one new and one used car was that our European car could not have been registered in the US and out here you need a 2nd car because their is no public transportation to speak of. Both around 10 years old now, low mileage and we'll probably keep them another ten.
Ours are with A/C, first ones to have that in our lives. Mine is bare bones, no electric windows, no central lock. The only thing that ever broek on either car in about 10 years is, guess what, an electric window motor on my wife's car.
I agree that $40 for a wall switch is too much. Likewise, $85 to $95 for a receptacle, is WAY too much. Standard wall switches start at just over a dollar and go as high as $7 or $8, some fancy models might be over $10. I understand these will cost a bit more but $40?
Another complaint is the limited set of devices available. I don't believe there are nearly enough. Can you get a GFCI receptacle for either Insteon or UPB (or even X10)? I can't find them. What about a lamp switch that replaces the built in switch on lamps, so I can actually turn the light on or off with the lamp switch and still control it remotely? And for the lamp switch, I'd like both a single switch and a three level switch. What about combination devices like a switch and switch-controlled outlet in one unit? If a company is serious about their home automation system, they need to offer a complete line of devices or forget it.
Thirdly, there is literally one style of switch available for either Insteon or UPB. Even X10 has a pretty limited set of choices. Perhaps to some customers, appearance is of no concern. I personally find the big fat rocker switches to be ugly. Of course, the same trend is evident for "standard" switches at your local big box hardware store. Have an electrician show you some catalogs and you'll see the wide variety of switches you can choose from. With apologies to Henry Ford, if you want Insteon or UPB, you can have any style you like as long as it's this one.
I just did a quick count (in my head, I probably missed two or three). There are 27 standard wall switches controlling lights in my house. There is a single dimmer for the dining room light. Further, there are ten switches wired in five three-way configurations and three more wired to a single set of lights (three fixtures). Assuming I could simply replace each of these 41 switches with this $40 switch, it would run me $1,640 just for light switches! And of course there are the ten or so pull switches on overhead lights in closets and in the basement. Of course, those items don't seem to be available anyway. Receptacles, at $95 each will get out of control even faster.
Don't forget the controllers, remotes, software etc. Pushes you above $2k in a jiffy. IMHO this will not fly at the $40 a pop price level. The ICON series leads into the right direction by offering lower prices. But it has to work and most people (including me) have now adopted a wait-and-see attitude when it comes to HA. Because X10 was a bit of a disappointment.
My arithmetic comes quite differently using actual, today's prices from
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Homeseer 2.0 software with INSTEON USB controller Part 12660 $200 Keypad Dimmer INSTEON Starter Kit - Part 2493 $160 two signal enhancers, 2 V2 dimmers, Wall keypad/dimmer Plug-In Dimmer INSTEON Starter Kit - Part 2490 $100 Desktop controller, two signal enhancers, 2 lamp modules
36 ICON dimmers and ICON lamp modules (any mix) $720 (36 _more_-- Yikes! Is the choice *really* "41 dimmers or nothing" ?)
Shipping $20 Total $1200 In other words, No. It is not "over $2k". For a complete system with 31 (thirty-one) dimmers it is 1/2 that ( $979.71 + shipping to be more exact).
And its hippo-think IMO to assume one needs to be able to automate _every_ light to decide to automate _anything at all_. One could do *most* of what most folks need and want with half that.
I started with (effectively) the specials in the first three lines and added an admixture of one-of-each-of-everything because I'm a Curious George ...
FWIW, the ICON wall dimmers use identical cases, leads, PCBs (including gold plating) as the V2 dimmers that cost twice as much -- the only visible difference to my eyes is the number of LED's that are actually populated on the boards and thus the number of LED aperture in the plastic front. One can't tell if the TRIACS are the same part number without drilling out the rivet, and I'm not _that_ curious ;-) Newer V2's also have a larger choke.
If you run lots of CFL bulbs like most of us you'd probably need the
2876. But it's on sale as well so instead of $35 it's now $25. Probably HLS had their regular prices in mind and so did I. The sale prices do indeed look a lot better. Why don't they simply adjust their regular pricing to what's realistic?
They should also come out with a "real" starter kit for $99. The one on the Home Depot site doesn't contain any USB controller and our HD didn't have it AFAIR. Once in a while X10 offers the CM12, software (free), two lamp modules and two appliance modules from the pro series for around $85. Now that's a deal. If it only worked...
BTW, Home Depot does not list the ICON devices. It's all $39.99 there and that is too much.
Yep, just like city folks who think they absolutely need a big honking
4WD SUV. I'd concentrate on only the locations where automation really makes sense.
That's what puzzled me, too. The ads say "except for certain functions", whatever the heck that means they don't seem to say. I guess they did realize that anything much above $20 isn't exactly selling like hot cakes.
Many people say X10 is not reliable, but it certainly can be. Even before adding the XTB, we only had one living room light with a CF bulb that was a little cranky. It missed its OFF command several times a year. Everything else just worked. That includes almost all lighting, irrigation, hot water recirculation, supplemental ventilation, etc.
The sheer number of devices installed here had reduced signal levels on a couple of circuits to the 100 mV area. While everything except that one light worked perfectly, I designed the XTB to boost signal levels throughout the house. Even that one cranky light hasn't had a miss since then.
Properly installed, X10 can give a lot of value for the dollar. It can meet all your requirements.
The ICON 2876 wall switches were also $19.9x when I bought mine. The switch modules are currently $19.9x.
I just received a shipment of six different _dimmable_ fluorescent lamps -- both PAR's and spirals. The solution may be to use fluorescent lamps with compatible electronics, not different dimmers. (This is wishful thinking on my part, but it may even turn out to be true -- I'll report on what I find.)
ABIK, SmartHome has always had "specials" on INSTEON. There has, ABIK, been a $19.9x "special" on ICON dimmers -- sometimes white LED, sometimes green, sometimes yellow (IIRC) as long as ICONs have been available. This may or may not continue. The logic is wrong in any case (LED should be ON when the light is ON, at least for the way my brain is programmed.)
Wait till LaborDay/Halloween/Thanksgiving/whatever and they'll also have
10-15% additional discount and(or) free shipping.
So don't buy from Home Depot. I'd buy from a locally owned hardware store to give them the business, or any store that added value by knowing something. But why buy INSTEON from a know-nothing, third-party, Big Box when it is available cheaper with a few mouse clicks directly from the manufacturer ?
Note too that the list of announced hardware from other than SmartLabs/SmartHome is growing. Wouldn't surprise me if SmartHome got out of the low-end dimmer market as soon as there is a third-party supplier if not before. SH would presumably still make $. In their technology comparison chart though, they do establish the expectation of a $20 INSTEON switch/dimmer.
There is also reduced functionality in the "scene" capability that is controlled by firmware that was/is described in a spec comparison. I couldn't find that comp chart on the web site when I looked jist now.
My recollection is that I could not find any visible differences in the IC's between ICON and V2. They could conceivably even have the same firmware and sense the number of LEDs or a single jumper to switch from ICON to V2 mode. I dunno. Optos used to go on boards last because the flux cleaner, but that may not be needed any more. They might/could run the PCB production for all dimmers identically up to populating the LEDs.
I, for one, have no idea whether or not they are "selling like hot cakes". How did you obtain your authoritative data on overall INSTEON sales?
Well, maybe they'll have a 20% off sale some day, then they'd be back at $20 :-)
Out here dimmable CFL are expensive. Most CFL are sold during utility-subsidized sales. Buck a piece etc. and those aren't dimmable. The last round was pretty good, Philips brand. But even a dimmable one that I once tried didn't behave that well. While it dimmed a little it made quite a buzz unless fully open.
I'll keep my eyes open. But their PC interface needs to be reasonable. $199 is a bit high.
No problem with that. However, I strongly believe that the big box stores are "the" vehicle to advertise for a new technology. Whether we like it or not that's where most people shop these days.
Even if it was different firmware that would be fine. No need for gizmos, it just needs to turn stuff on and off.
Note the little "I guess..." in there. No authoritative data here. But if sale pricing is on every time you look that just leave the impression that the list price didn't stick in the marketplace.
As to HA in general, as I said before, nobody else in the neighborhood has any. Whether Inseon or X10 or other system. It's just not happening.
Maybe I just couldn't find them but the only remotes I see for Insteon were these four:
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No handhelds, no pocket remotes, no key fobs. Does anyone else make those? I can hardly imagine HA without handheld remotes. My wife would certainly not approve, that's what sold her on HA.
If the "it" you refer to is exponential, 'explosive' growth, we agree. If you mean double-digit growth, we disagree.
In my opinion, all the hardware ingredients are available at affordable and justifiable cost when viewed as a component of home infrastructure and not as a 'hometoy'. Absolutely no question in my mind.
What isn't mature yet is the average homeowner's ability to manage the risk and complexity and the _downside_ of the HA power that is already available. Problems suffered by the many -- VCRs flashing 12:00, the Y2K scare, garage doors accidentally open, HD crashes, malware, identity theft, security system false alarms -- are cumulatively much, much more important than bad experiences with X-10 by a relative few, IMO.
Satisfactory management of the new, added _risk_ that powerful HA _creates_ is what will be needed for HA to grow exponentially, IMO.
That's a societal/legal/heuristic/humaninterface/AI/management/software/whew! problem. Not an X-10 problem.
So far, ABIK, INSTEON is effectively powerline-only except for the phase coupler-repeaters. The RF side may or may not happen.
But there's absolutely nothing preventing one from using another RF or IR or laser, or RFID, or acoustic, or voice protocol through an interconnected controller. In my system, I already have RF fobs (with much better security) through the Napco (and Elk), and IR of all sorts through a whole bunch of simple interfaces including Slinke. Why would I want Yet Another Interface from INSTEON ?
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