X10 replacement?

Just a data point, they're only available via the internet/catalog. Rats!

Just a note, the SDK is $199, the PLCs are about $60 without the software.

Right now I'm enjoying one of those technology moments that Marc (?) just mentioned. My server is dead, a new mother board jsut arrived and I have a lot of work ahead of me doing the restore.

I also have no problem shopping at stores other than a Home Depot or Lowes or even shopping on the web. In fact, I've been accused of shopping on the web because it means I don't have to talk to actual people. The point being made, as Joerg pointed out, was that until these devices are in the big box stores, they are not going to become ubiquitous. No one that I know (and I know some real gadget hounds) has even one X10, Insteon, or UPB switch in their house. Furthermore, while I cannot say that I've checked all the local hardware stores - there are a few left - those I have been to don't know any more about this than the average shelf-stocker at Home Depot, which is to say not much. The ability to buy these things over the web is great for the hobbyist, but it isn't going to get them into most homes.

Also, while $20 is a whole lot better than $40 for a wall switch, I'm not sure that's enough to convince the unwashed masses. Take your average Joe walking into your average Big Box (TM). He doesn't know from home automation. He sees two bins of wall switches. One is marked $1.25 each and the other $20 each. A few observations. First, the fact that the second bin used to be $40 isn't going to matter much. Second, the fact that the second bin says he can control the switch remotely may not be enough to overcome the 1600% price jump from the standard switch. On the other hand, if (as Joerg suggested a few posts back) there is a nice, slick demo display, with switches, lights, controllers, etc. that catches his eye and he can play with, he's going to start thinking, "yeah, this would be cool." Have you seen that anywhere? I certainly haven't. If I were in the business (and I'm not) I'd spend a couple weeks coming up with a killer demo and then send all my sales force (assuming I had one) into stores and do whatever it takes to get these things displayed and I'd offer reduced pricing to stores that put up the display.

Links. I want links. Not to belabor a point, but the small number of styles is an issue for me and, I believe, for getting to the masses. The reality in hardware stores is that Joe isn't going to find two bins of switches, he's going to find a dozen or two switches in many different styles and rated for different loads. Currently, they will be priced from the low end at about $1.25 to as much as $8 or $9. Then there's the $20 ICON switches.

Finally, I know guys are stereotyped as not caring about things like style but that's not completely accurate. I care that my house looks nice. My ideas of what is nice may not be as well developed as some but I still care. And I think the big rockers are ugly and I'd prefer to have all the switches in my house the same. The only thing I've see that is different is this one

from the illustration I cannot really tell what it is. That's another reason to be able to see these and actually hold them in my hand rather than buy them over the internet. Even a PDF product spec page with photographs from front and side would be useful.

I agree that if you can convince someone to view it as a component of home infrastructure that you could probably justify the cost. Particularly if you are dealing with the total cost of a house. But I'm not convinced that HA is viewed as anything other than a "hometoy" by any but a very few.

I would say what isn't mature yet is the average homeowner's ability to have the slightest clue what this is all about. The average homeowner has never even heard of any of this.

Hello Marc,

I agree, although people with an inquiring mind will eventually find out that X10 didn't or doesn't work so well. Either during a web search or by asking friends who tried it. That will not help the cause for HA.

Whenever I buy something important I always go out onto the Internet and find out about other's experiences. That has substantially influenced my purchasing decisions. And it has prevented purchases that I would most certainly have regretted.

TV and VCR remotes, yes, mostly. But HA? Nah. Ours are plain and simple: Eight pairs of buttons (on and off each), nicely labeled "Driveway Lights", "Coffee Maker" and so on. Any HA system worth its salt absolutely must have these. Same with keychain remotes. When we are finishing work in the yard a bit late but still want to play a game of table tennis a wee press on the button that's on the gate key will secretly turn a switch inside the house and there is flood-light. Want an espresso after dinner in the yard? No need to walk inside and up the stairs. Press a button ... click. Morning coffee? Press another button and turn around for another precious five minutes of shut-eye. My wife would not want any HA if that feature was gone. No way.

That's one of the points. HA companies need to talk to actual users and not rely on assumptions like "Oh, people are going to like this one!". Their execs should look at how medical electronics folks do that. We are constantly at customers, notepad in hand.

How could he or she? If it ain't at Lowe's or Home Depot it simply does not exist for most people.

Hello Neil,

The USB version is $69, most laptops and PCs don't have RS232 anymore. This interface features memory and I saw that there is some free software. Maybe that software can download timers and simple macros which is all most folks really need. I want to load the timers and then turn the PC off.

Unfortunately they didn't integrate a wireless receiver in there like X10 did. I guess the phase bridge RF modules could take that job. Costs extra, of course.

That's why I'd never let HA go as far as having a live PC control things. No way. And certainly not with Windows on there.

Hello Marc,

If RF doesn't happen I don't think they'd have much of a chance in the marketplace. Just my humble opinion.

Ok, but think about the public. About people who aren't HA experts. They can't make that work unless SmartHome tells them letter by letter "This is how you set it up, these are the parts you need to buy and this is what it'll cost you".

There needs to be a plug-in transceiver and small remotes. Keeping a PC running isn't an option in most cases. Another reason why you need a plug-in interface: Keychain remotes might yield 100-150ft in range, if that. In practice houses like ours contain aluminum foil backed fiber in the walls. So you need to be able to plug the transceiver into an outlet that you can reach with the remote. If I plug ours into an office outlet we can't turn on the lights for the ping-pong table anymore.

Hello Neil,

Exactly that is what will keep HA a small niche market. The Home Depot site isn't a very effective web site and most people I know have never visited it. They go straight to the store. If stuff ain't there it most likely doesn't exist, in their eyes.

There seems to be an assumption that the Do-It-Yourself (DIY) market is the principal driver for HA acceptance for most folks. I'm skeptical.

I submit (with no data to back it up) that the bleeding edge, early adopter, DIY market is not a robust leading indicator of HA success and market penetration. IOW, the opinions of pundits in this newsgroup don't mean much.

I'd venture to claim that a distinct minority of US/Canadian/Europeans would not even tackle the simple replacement of all the on-off toggle switches in their apartment/house with even _non-automated_ dimmer switches.

The problem has been that market has been stuck on the DIY low-cost crowd and Crestron/AMX markets because builders/installers/electricians can't make $ on the installs because of post-sale issues.

HA will be broadly accepted when the majority of median-priced _new_ homes come with the added 1-3% added cost of dependable HA already included in the purchase. And someone has made money in the process.

My 7 Cents ... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Hello Marc,

Not in this NG because John Doe doesn't read it. However, when John Doe is over at Gyro Gearloose' house, sees him press a button and something magic happens the usual reaction is "Wow, I want that, too!".

I can't count how many times visitors asked me whether I can install something like what we have in their homes. I declined because, to say it a bit arrogantly, X10 doesn't live up to my standards for quality.

True. But how would they know about HA?

Correct. The risk of post-sale issues is what has snuffed out any thoughts of mine to start a business in HA. There needs to be something better. Possibly SmartLabs will bring us just that with Insteon but first the line needs to be complete and show maturing signs.

I wouldn't count on that in the current housing market. Ask a realtor. Many of them will tell you that over-improving a home does not increase its resale value.

As for upgrades, if people knew HA it might happen although not 3%. However, the first priority seems to be stuff with more "Wow effect" like surround sound wiring etc. Now it's the wife's turn because the husband already had his say. She'll more likely go for the $2k upgrade that nets her a Ceran cooktop and a whisper quiet Miele dishwasher instead of the standard contractor grade stuff.

Hey, I see an inflationary trend here ;-)

err ... strike the "not" in the second line ... Marc

Hello Marc,

You mean those little push-button timers? I know a lot of people without electrical background who have installed those at their homes. That's as far as HA goes for them and quite frankly, they seem to be content with it. The only gripe I have heard is that they don't last that long. After a few years one goes on the fritz and re-programming doesn't really stick anymore. Similar to what I had with our X10 stuff lately, for other reasons though.

Beyond those wall switch replacements some folks buy the occasional radio-controlled outlet. But these don't require and installation. You just plug them in, insert the batteries and that's it.

No. I meant a simple manual dimmer. I mean that the majority of folks do not do _any_ major work on electrical system. Period. Household 'lectricity is dangerous. Electricians work on electrical systems.

And electricians currently balk at installing HA because current HA lighting will not stay 'unbroken'. Until professional electricians are eager to install HA, it will not thrive IMO.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Hello Marc,

Mostly people around here call a handyman to install a dimmer if they don't want to do it themselves. But seriously, most of the people I know do that themselves.

I would agree. Stuff needs to be better engineered and built. It doesn't help if you open a defective appliance module and the innards of the relay fall into your lap (happened to me...). Even our Rottweiler stared at that mess in disbelief.

But that is not the only requirement. To entice people to either install HA themselves or contract an electrician to do it for them requires: Advertisement, advertisement, more advertisement. Home Depot displays, TV ads, full page newspaper ads, "purchased" articles, articles in Martha Stewart publications and similar magazine, etc.

Hardwired electrician friendly HA lighting (i.e.: Centralite, ALC) is out there already but few will pay the cost and fewer electricians will install it. I was headed that way until we got a steal on the home I am moving into.

Since retro wiring for H/W control is not practical in my new home I am looking at Zwave, UPB, and Insteon. At a functional level I don't see the differences between them that Marc has espoused, and am still dithering over which way to go. They all are close enough in $/control point to be competitive, but reliability and long term breadth of product line is still. I am looking for a single tech solution with a minimal number of interfaces since WAF for me also means that she has to be able to fix minor problems when I am not here.

Right. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, although it is clear that my words did. I've retrofitted hardwired lighting in my house but I'd still be looking for a contractor had I tried to get a local electrician to do it Hardwired can be bulletproof. It's nor rht the wiring is unfriendly, it's the retrofiting that is hard to estimate in advance. In my case, would have ended up paying time and materials on a job that could be stretched out interminably.

I don't think I've exposed any functional differences in environments for which they are suited (but see above clarification ;-) And RF simply will not work in some environments.

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

One thing that makes retrofitting hardwired harder for me was wall texture. Here in California walls are almost always textured in newer homes. Hardwiring will mean cutting the occasional hole. On a smooth surface wall, thats no big deal, but texture matching is a real PITA. Other places I have lived its smooth finish, which is quite easy to match.

There are several electricians installing home automation and home theater systems. Say so on the truck, though I don't know what that means.