Laying out a new house - looking for Wiring and controller advise

I have about 50 Insteon switches and modules controlled by a JDS Stargate and it's working fairly well with the Insteon 2414X translator. The issues I do have are related to the translator and I'm looking forward to installing the RoZetta to solve that.

Insteon has a major hardware defect, sub-standard choke coils that are allowing noise into the triac, which causes VERY undesirable and significant light flickering when certain loads are dimmed and there is Insteon communication. It won't be fixed until July (maybe, they aren't promising). (and boo to SmartHome for continuing to ship the defective dimmers when they have supposedly fixed the problem in the newer ToggleLincs but not the older Decora or KeypadLinc dimmers).

I would wait until then if you plan on doing anything with Insteon.

[snip]

Where did you find this information? I've been watching a thread on SmartHome's Insteon forum

which indicates there are two (perhaps related) problems. One is with Insteon controlled lights that flash on/off rapidly when there is powerline traffic from Insteon controllers and another is with certain non-Insteon controlled lights (various lights & controllers) also flickering during Insteon transmissions. I haven't seen any diagnosis from SmartHome and question whether "sub-standard choke coils" could explain the symptoms.

There is another problem which I've seen, Bruce Robin has seen, and others have also reported wherein Insteon controllers/modules appear to be reacting to very low level out-of-band "noise". The LED on the controller/module will flicker rapidly and the controller/module will stop responding to legitimate powerline signals. This problem has been around for a few years, predating Insteon. I first saw it with the very first PowerLinc RS232 interface, it's also present in their 2000STW LampLinc modules and now it seems to also be affecting the Insteon hardware.

Dave,

see

post #42

Wayne,

Thanks for the link. I suspect "smartlabsmike" is the administrator of the SmartHome Insteon forum that I cited.

I do not buy the "choke" explanation. I think it's a symptom of some more fundamental problem. It does not explain the similar flickering by the compact fluorescent, LED lights, Lutron dimmers and others reported in the forum I cited. And, at least one individual reported that this happens only when certain modules transmit Insteon but not when others transmit Insteon. Specifically, he saw flickering with a ControLinc but not with the 2414U.

In the other interference problem I cited, I've isolated the culprit but haven't yet solved it. I have a NEC MultiSync XV15 monitor (top-shelf & state-of-the-art when I bought it many years ago) that causes the LED to flicker on the 2414S, 2456D3, 2000STW & causes the 1132B to go deaf to the powerline. Whatever it's putting out is not visible on my scope (which uses this monitor) nor does it register on my ESM1. I've been wanting to get a new-fangled LED monitor anyway. In any event, I think it's a serious design flaw that, like the modules losing their addresses after power glitches, should have been fixed long ago.

I th>Dave,

Insteon was supposed to be the panacea, but it is starting to show its warts.

Remember, X10 worked great 30 years ago in a clean environment. Its main problem today is the multiplicity of signal suckers, which can be addressed with filters and a more powerful transmitter.

Insteon was supposed to cohabitate with X10, but reports indicate installing more than a few Insteon devices kills X10 communication. That's a sleazy way to force out the competition.

Jeff.

In pre-1980 business ethics it might be seen as sleezy but, these days, it's just good marketing. ;) While I wish they had designed it to disconnect the transmitters when idle which would have addressed the X-10 issue, in all honesty, had it been my decision, I probably would have done the same thing.

There haven't been many people here recommending replacing X-10 for those who understand how to keep it working. I do recommend that newcomers give Insteon serious consideration. Overall, it's faster and two-way with ACK/NAK so it has high reliability. My interest in HA has always been from the POV of those with disabilities who need reliable, low-cost automation.

I've noted that, as it uses 131.65kHz, it will have the same signal-sink issues as X-10.

SmartHome really hasn't tried to snooker anybody. They are quite open about Insteon causing problems for X-10 as the number of Insteon devices increases.

Also, Europe has limits (5Vpp) for powerline carriers so a more powerful PLC transmitter is only a viable solution in N. America.

Ah. So it is the acknowledge transmitter in each Insteon device that causes the signal degradation. X10 has a similar problem with their transmitters. Shouldn't that degrade the Insteon signals too? It's simple to design a transmitter that presents a negligible load when active. I wonder why these guys didn't do that.

Guess that means the XTB is limited to North America. As you know, it hits the line with up to 20Vpp.

Jeff

[snip]

Each Insteon unit automatically repeats all Insteon traffic until the number of specified repeats is exhausted or they see an ACK. This tends to saturate the "network" with Insteon signal, overcoming to some extent, the effects of signal sinks, etc. especially as the number of Insteon devices increases. This is the main reason that each is a transmitter. It would be simple to add a reed relay to just enable/disable the transmitters so they do not load the line when idle. Or they could do it with a few transistors as shown in application notes for the TDA5051A powerline modem chip.

Yes and no. Here, manufacturers must meet the burden of regulation (FCC, UL, etc.) but for most of Europe, the burden is on the end user so vendors are free to sell almost anything as long as they label it "not for use in CE countries" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

Oh, really? Ethics don't chgange with the seasons, friend. If it was unethical then it's still unethical now.

It appears that their Insteon isn't all it's cracked up to be. I doubt they

*planned* to cause problems with existing X10 hardware.

When I was converting from X10 to Insteon I found that some of my Leviton X10 dimmers would cause their loads to flicker when Insteon signals were sent. I have not seen the same from other Insteon units though. Once I completed the conversion, the flickering was gone with the X10 units.

It does work quite reliably and overall I'm pleased with it. I had tried a UPB starter kit before Insteon and found that it worked no better than X10. IOW, in the two areas of my home where X10 flat out won't work, UPB didn't either. Insteon, with the RF bridges strategically located, does the job beautifully. I do miss code wheels though.

Your experience is encouraging. I also appreciate the fact that you make clear whether your statements are based on experience or supposition. My biggest concern with Insteon is that only one company supports it. When they move on or should they experience business troubles (certainly not unheard of in our industry) you could wind up with an unsupported system -- no repair or replacement parts and no add-ons for the next project.

This is related to the reason I've always avoided proprietary technology in security systems. If the entire system is dependant upon a single manufacturer it can become completely unsupportable at the stroke of a comptroller's pen.

While I have not yet tried either Insteon or Z-Wave, my inclination is toward Z-Wave because it has garnered support from a vast number of manufacturers. We're going to do some remodeling in our new place shortly. Our home has 3800 sf under air and over 2000 sf on the lanai. We're going to add an outdoor kitchen / dining room as well but that will have to wait a couple of years. The house has one floor on a slab with 12 foot ceilings and concrete floors. Rewiring the electrical system would be difficult and time consuming. Fortunately, the builder installed wiring for a comprehensive security system.

The project will of course include installing a home automation system. For the controller I've chosen ELK's M1G. I plan to use Z-Wave for the lights and thermostats. We also need to replace the pool / Jacuzzi controller. I'm looking into a Z-Wave option for that as well.

I'm not too concerned with the fact that only Smarthome currently builds product as they are making the chips available to all takers so new products should be forthcoming. Worst case - it dies off - I can still use what I have and even reprogram them to work as standard X10 devices. If I had to scrap the whole investment - as I've done with the X10 stuff I've removed - the cost to date has "only" been about $1000 (for approx

50 devices) due to some very special pricing offered for a very short time to those who signed up as developers (best $99 I ever spent!).

Key to my decision was the ability to translate X10 commands to Insteon (as can now be done with UPB too) to protect the investment and hours of programming in the Stargate.

The explanation for the flicker given by "SmarthomeJohn" in the AcessHA forum cited by Wayne is...

The component is the choke coil. We found that the repeated Insteon signals generated by the dimmer was getting into the traic and causing the flicker. Basically, we are upping the value to attenuate the Insteon signals that go into the triac.

That makes no sense so I think John may be in marketing rather than in engineering. Or maybe he works in the alarm side of the business. ;)

It's more likely that the choke, which is intended to block triac noise from getting to the powerline, is of the wrong value and the triac noise from the Insteon unit is sufficient to cause problems for other microcontroller based dimmers sharing the powerline. Lutron sells some inline triac filters that might "fix" this.

Does Smarthome claim that new products will be forthcoming or have other manufacturers actually stated that they are developing products? I'm not entirely convinced of Smarthome's veracity.

With what effect on other X10 devices?

For you and I that's not a lot of money to lose. For some it would be a significant loss. Also, since those prices are no longer available, new opters face a considerably higher risk.

That brings up another area of interest. I havn't invested much time studying Stargate because the dealer margins aren't worth my while. However, you seem to have had good success with the system. Would you mind going over some of Stargate's strengths and weaknesses? I'm particularly interested in the kind of support you've had from the manufacturer, as well as its ability to integrate with various sub-systems from other manufacturers. Presumably this will be of interest to others as well.

Here are a few more links for you.

http://echel>Looking at 80 lights/outlets being controlled, including a large detached

While the JDS Technologies Stargate

is getting a bit long in the tooth, it is still the most sophisticated in terms of programming options - from what I've read from those who've used both, the ELK unit is far more limited. Their recent decision to discontinue the IVR board though does impose limits that I would not be happy about. There is a HomeSeer plug-in for the Stargate that is quite popular too.

Stargate has been well supported over the years with all F/W & S/W upgrades provided free and reasonable charges for new hardware - the most notable being the addition of internet access and control and the use of any Windows based wireless PDA for control (with customizable graphics).

Jeff Stein, the owner of JDS Technolgies usually answers the phone himself to provide technical assistance and support and treats his customers like long lost friends. He's a major part of the package you get when you buy a Stargate! In fact, when he and his wife came to Hawaii last year they spent a night at our house - he and I were up till

3:30am wiring up and programming some new things! Now THAT'S support.

Some of the things Stargate does for me in addition to the usual lighting control is automatically forward my landline to my cellphone when I leave the house and unforward it when I return, call me and/or send an email when certain events occur like mail or package delivery or the gardner arrives, control all pool and spa functions, control HVAC t-stats and dampers, control motorized shades and even makes sure the gas tot he BBQ is turned off.

Stargate integrates tightly with the Caddx alarm system and, of course, the RCS line of t-stats and RS-485 controlled relays, control pads and screens. I know Jeff is very interested in integrating Dave's RoZetta device as it will mean that the IVR board will not have to be removed to add UPB or Insteon integration.

Back to the Insteon topic, to answer your question first about how well the Insteons would function as X10 replacements, perhaps Jeff Volp's XTB will solve that concern. However, for someone who has a significant investment in X10 stuff already, I would try the XTB before switching horses (I didn't know about it when I started, DOH!). Between the four new major competing technologies it's going to be a bit of a crapshoot for the next couple of years as things shake out. While there's a few other Insteon products I'd like to see (and expect to soon), what I have will still work for many years (provided I stock some spares) even if Smarthome were to dry up and blow away. My installation remains fairly static over time so I don't a lot of support. That said, Insteon support has been excellent and I expect it will continue to be.

For those faced with the choice for a new installation, this is probably the worst time to have to choose as there's no guarantee as to how the industry will shake out. However, the investment that's at risk is still fairly modest at most levels. For those who own a 10,000sf home even $5000 is not likely to break the bank and for those in a more modest 1000sf home a few hundred dollars is probably not out of line. In any case, the investment in any of these technologies should never be a total loss as the products should function for their normal life (whatever that is) before needing replacement even if support is gone. Some of my X10 stuff still works after 22 years of daily use while others (notably the SuperSocket) crap out after a year. Given the turnover rate of most consumer electronics, I think a 5 year life expectancy is reasonable (and note that Insteon offers an industry unique optional 7 year warranty).