NEC refers to NFPA. You *still* haven't provided specific wording to refute my argument that doesn't involve "fire alarm systems". A self installed home security system is *not* a "fire alarm system". A professionally installed burglar alarm is also *not* a fire alarm system
*but* most professionals would *recommend* installation of a
*supervised* smoke/fire detection system. As for replacing the 110 VAC smoke alarms with a listed supervised smoke detector, most AHJ's would tell you the same thing the guys in my jurisdiction say: "As long as the wiring to the 110VAC smoke alarms remains intact and can be reconnected if the supervised detectors are ever removed we don't have a problem. Please ensure the high voltage wires are clearly marked and physically separated from the low voltage cabling."
There is, but Bass seemed to think it was *manufactured* as a "tail-dragger".
While the aesthetics are in fact much nicer, for recreational flying I find I much prefer a Cessna 185 on amphib floats. I live in Vancouver, B.C. My partner recently purchased a nicely refurbished Piper Aerostar very much like this one though
"Model RM4 Designed to activate an auxiliary device like a bell, siren, strobe light, exhaust fan, alarm panel, or door closer when alarm is sounded. Now works with "Smart Interconnect" BRK CO alarms. The RM4 has form-C contacts that, once connected to BRK 120volt AC alarms, automatically activate whenever the alarm sounds and will automatically deactivate when the alarm shuts off. Meets UL 317, UL2034 and UL539 for accessories."
That is patently untrue. When you connect smoke detectors or any other type of fire detectors to an alarm control panel the system becomes a fire alarm system and must comply with code requirements for a fire alarm. There is no exception for a "home security system."
It's prohibited by code unless the part is specifically "listed for the purpose" by the manufacturer. We've had this discussion before. Mr. Olson claims I've never given code references to illustrate the point. However, he conveniently forgets the following passage which I posted in an earlier discussion.
"NFPA72 FUNDAMENTALS OF FIRE ALARM SYSTEMS 72-21
1-5 Fundamentals.
1-5.1 Common System Fundamentals.
1-5.1.2 Equipment. Equipment constructed and installed in conformity with this code shall be listed for the purpose for which it is used."
"1-5.3 Compatibility. All fire detection devices that receive their power from the initiating device circuit or signaling line circuit of a fire alarm control unit shall be listed for use with the control unit."
In the prior discussion, Mr. Olson also offered the following advice which clearly violated code:
See above. The answer was given quite some time ago but Mr. Olson insists it wasn't given. The reader may wish to note that the comments by Mr. Olson in this forum are usually based on personal animus rather than anything factual or experiential.
And NFPA specifically says you can't use any device on a fire alarm unless it's listed for the purpose. Readers may wish to investigate this further. The process of "listing" a device for use with a control panel involves testing it with the panel to make certain not only that the device will function but that the system as a whole will conform to code requirements.
One of the requirements of a fire alarm system, be it residential or commercial, is that all initiaing devices (smoke detectors, heat detectors, etc.) be supervised against accidental disconnction. This is simply not possible with integrated 110VAC smoke detectors.
Another requirement is that all of the parts of a fire alarm system have two power sources. This typically consists of a transformer connected to AC and a rechargeable battery in the control panel. While all current 110VAC smoke detectors have 9V backup batteries in them, the relay device does not. It will not function during a power failure. Furthermore, some od these relays have the annoying habit of triggering upon power restoral, causing a false alarm.
Because of these weaknesses the FIREX 499 relay (one of the models cited by Mr Olson) is specifically NOT listed for use with an alarm control panel. The manufacturer even went so far as to state in the installation instructions that the device may not be so used.
I have before and I will repeat it here. The following are directly quoted from the manual:
"WARNING: The relay will not op-erate without continnuous AC power...." and "The relay module is not recommended for use with automatic dialers or security alarm panels."
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Code makes no reference to who installs the system. Any alarm system which includes smoke detectors must comlply with the NFPA.
I rely on code in defining what is or is not a fire alarm system. The NFPA's definition follows:
" Fire Alarm System. A system or portion of a combination system that consists of components and circuits arranged to monitor and annunciate the status of fire alarm or supervisory signal-initiating devices and to initiate the appropriate response to those signals. NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm Code=AE"
Perhaps the gentleman would care to explain where the code exempts "self-installed" alarm systems or perhaps where it exempts residential systems from compliance with the general standards of component listings. I've read every word of that code several times and for the life of me I can't seem to locate those exemptions.
I beliebve you are referring to the BRK model RM3 auxiliary relay. Here's what BRK says about the model.
"Model RM3" "This 120 VAC relay can be used with BRK Electronics=AE brand smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms or heat alarms to signal auxiliary devices like horns, bells, and door closures."
"The RM3 accessory relay is designed to activate an auxiliary device like a bell, light or door closer when used with BRK=AE Electronics 120V AC smoke, Heat or CO alarms. Once connected, if the alarm is triggered, the RM3 sends a signal to activate the auxiliary device. The relay deactivates automatically when the alarm stops."
"Relay may be wired next to alarm, or from a remote location. If wired remote from the alarm, a maximum of 1,000 feet of #18AWG or larger wire, rated at least 300V should be used. The 120V AC relay is to be used only with 120V AC BRK=AE Electronics alarms, to a maximum of 18 interconnected devices. The RM3 will not receive signals from alarms operating on battery or battery back-up power."
Please note that the manufacturer does not list the device for use with an alarm control panel. There is a common misunderstanding about "UL Listing" which unfortunately has been promoted by another gentleman posting to this newsgroup. The mere existence of a UL listing does not mean that a given device can be used in conjunction with a fire alarm system. For example, your kitchen toaster likely bears a UL listing if you purchased in the USA. That only means that the devvice is considered safe for use as a toaster.
Side note: Sometimes clients seem to use toasters as a means of testing their smoke alarms. Those same clients occasionally use the smokes as an oven timer. :^)
It is hoped that you will give serious consideration to what I've posted in this thread. A fire alarm system is intended to save your life and to help save your property. In order to best accomplish those goals you should pay close attention to the manufacturers' instructions.
If you're doing your own residential fire & security alarm installation you need to familiarize yourself with a few basic principles from code as well. Most of these are easily gleaned from the instructions and from advice you can obtain from your alarm vendor.
If you need to review a portion of the code let me know. I'll be happy to forward brief passages (in conformance with copyright limitations) for your perusal.
We're not talking about a "fire alarm". We're talking about a home security system. I posted the link to the BRK relay (which *can* be used to interconnect your 110VAC smoke alarms to your home alarm system) in another response in this thread. Are you saying their "listing" is any different from Firex, or ESL, or Nortron?
You're confusing the issue here by introducing "compatibility listing". The issue of compatibility doesn't apply to four wire smoke detectors. You can use any of a number of different manufacturer's equipment in this instance on any UL listed control. Compatibility only comes into play on two wire devices powered by the listed panel's initiating circuit.
"Compatiblity listing" also applies to two wire smoke alarms on specific burg/security panels because (as with "Listed Fire Alarm Systems) they're usually powered by a specific initiating circuit(s). Four wire smoke alarms aren't. They derive their power from another source. Most are UL (ULC) Listed as stand alone or multiple station devices and you can't mix manufacturers or even model numbers. I haven't come across one four wire smoke alarm that is specifically *listed* for interconnection to a fire alarm system (in fact most fire alarm manufacturers want you to use two wire smoke detectors for obvious reasons). Most alarm control manufacturers will tell you how to interconnect four wire smoke alarms and often provide the power supervisory relay kits to accomplish this. If you check out the installation instructions with any of the Meridian (DSC) series of four wire smoke alarms their "listing" doesn't mention interconnection (or even testing/compatibility) to a specific "listed fire alarm panel".
We're not talking a "fire alarm system". You've still failed to provide the "chapter and verse" to back up your claim.
This isn't a FIRE ALARM SYSTEM. Nothing you can do short of having one installed to meet the specific UL/ULC requirements will make it so. UL certification isn't an issue in a home alarm system (and if it was, we're talkin' a "horse of a different color").
Nope. They never say that. They say it's "not recommended". When you talk to their tech-support staff they'll tell you why (and the reasons cited have nothing to do with your "so called" code issues).
Which is a "far cry" from wording that specifically *prohibits* its use with "automatic dialers or security alarm panels". Why do you think it is? I'll tell you why. All of the Firex smokes "self test" when power is first applied to them. That means that if you have a power failure in your home, the relay will trigger momentarily when power is re-applied. This will result in a false alarm to the CS and activation of the system siren (if one is attached to your burg panel). There is
*nothing* in *any* code, statute, or ordinance that prohibits a homeowner from connecting his 110VAC smoke alarms to his security panel however, with one exception. If the system is a UL (or ULC in Canada) Certificated *INSTALLATION* then all devices and wiring must comply with the various specific standards that come into play. I have only eleven customers with ULC Certified Residential Systems. They are a rarity but some insurers will require it depending on their level of risk.
Horse twaddle. Where's it say that?? And now I suppose your "bodge" involving 3 relays to get a UL Listed fire communicator to test on the second line, or to interrupt your primary receiver for five seconds (for non-paying clients) is somehow "OK" while connecting a 110VAC smoke alarm with a *listed* relay to a resi-burg panel isn't? Can you explain the difference, Mr. Bass??
Nope. It's not. What AHJ would care what you connect to your home alarm system, Robert? What AHJ would care that you even have a home alarm system? If you honestly believe that doing so is "against code", then quote me the chapter and verse. Better yet, call your local AHJ and ask him if *he* cares one way or another. He will make one subtle distinction for you. There *is* a difference between a listed fire alarm system and a home security (or burglar) alarm. I wonder how many "Rat-Shack" alarms there are out there with the relays they used to sell to tie in your AC smoke alarms? Heck, if we were to believe your claims regarding running your own alarm company in CT between 1979 and 1989, you could have installed "hundreds" of alarm systems *without a permit* or the proper licensing.
Please provide chapter and verse in NFPA to back up your claim.
A four wire smoke alarm *DOES NOT* receive it's "power from the initiating device circuit or signalling line circuit of a fire alarm control unit". It therefore does not require "listing" with a specific control unit. Its listing doesn't mention connection to a listed control unit but has to do with "single and multiple station smoke detectors". There is *NO* code, statute, or authority that would prohibit a homeowner from connecting their 110AC smoke alarms to their home security system. Furthermore, no AHJ would care one way or another (with the exception of maintaining the physical seperation between the AC and the DC which DOES happen to be a code issue).
Where does this "violate code", Robert??
It wasn't. The answer is always couched in specific wording involving a "fire alarm system". A resi-burg panel is *not* a listed fire alarm system unless, of course, you *install* it as such.
"Personal animus" has nothing to do with this discussion. I personally think you should have stayed out of it. You don't work with listed fire alarm systems. I do.
Yes, we are indeed talking about a fire alarm system. Perhaps if you would purchase a copy of the code -- NFPA 72, to be specific -- you would know what it says. The code clearly defines a fire alarm system.
Also, almost all residential security systems sold in the USA carry the UL listing for a residential fire alarm control panel. There's a reason that manufacturers spend tons of money getting that lkisting, Frmank. Without it the systems can't be used as a required fire alarm system.
On a side note, I noticed you've made comments about me "pushing" ELK's M1 Gold system before it had a UL listing. In point of fact, the listing was "pending" (it is now UL listed) and that information was never hidden from clients. While we're on the subject, you have also rtecommended the ELK M1 Gold while the listing was pending so I'm not sure what your problem is in that regard.
Once you connect a smoke detector that security system becomes a fire alarm system and it is subject to the code requirements which apply to a fire alarm system. You can't get around that fact, no matter how many times you try to ignore it.
Try reading the listings. There are three of them -- not one -- and none apply to use with a fire alarm control panel. Again, it helps if you actually purchase and read the code, or in this case the UL listing.
No, Frank. It is you who are confused. The listing must be "for the purpose". Code is quite clear on this.
We're not talking about using 2 or 4 wire smokes. We're talking about improperly using a relay to connect 110VAC smokes to a low voltage system when that relay is not listed for the purpose.
Indeed I have. I'll repeat it here.
NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm Code=AE
72-16: DEFINITIONS
"Fire Alarm Control Unit (Panel). A system component that receives inputs from automatic and manual fire alarm devices and might supply power to detection devices and to a transponder(s) or off-premises transmitter(s). The control unit might also provide transfer of power to the notification appliances and transfer of condition to relays or devices connected to the control unit. The fire alarm control unit can be a local fire alarm control unit or a master control unit."
"Fire Alarm System. A system or portion of a combination system that consists of components and circuits arranged to monitor and annunciate the status of fire alarm or supervisory signal-initiating devices and to initiate the appropriate response to those signals."
It is indeed a fire alarm system according to the above definitions.
ULC requirements will make it so...
Installation practices don't make it a fire alarm system. Connection of smokedetectors makes it into a fire alarm system. It might not be listed or certificated, but that doesn't change the fact that the national fire alarm code calls it a fire alarm system.
're talkin' a "horse of a different color")...
Actually, you're talking horse excrement, but that is nothing new. We both know that you're wrong. You just won't admit it.
See above.
Any AHJ who knows code would care.
Almost none until you start running wires. Once you do that it is subject to the electrical code (NEC, aka NFPA70) anywhere that code is in use. When you connect a smoke detector to the system, you now have a fire alarm system.
BTW, you can jeep posting BS about fictitious dates during which you claim I ran my alarm company all you like. I've been in the alarm industry for over 29 years. Your silly lies don't change that.
For the sake of accuracy it is a resi burg/fire panel.
is *not* a listed fire alarm
make up you mind Frank. you appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. the op it was to be a fire alarm. If an insurance company wanted added a fire alarm to a burg panel I would not use an unlisted relay hooked to his
110v smokes to accomplish that and neither would you if you are really a business owner as you say. If there was a loss on a million dollar house and they found out you had cobbled together a fire alarm out of misc parts not listed for the application you would be in trouble. This stalking of RLB by you is becoming an ugly business.
No. The OP stated he was hooking up an Omni II and was wondering what kind of smoke alarms to go with - two wire or four wire. He didn't specifically state he was hooking up a fire alarm system. I understood him to mean he was installing a burg system in a new construction.
You are correct. And I believe I stated as such early on in the thread. The OP asked whether-or-not he could hook up his 110VAC smoke alarms to his burg panel. You have to re-read what I wrote in response. I won't re-hash this whole thread.
Horse twaddle. First and foremost I would never do such a thing. This is a DIY job and anything goes. Besides which neither you or Robert have provided the specific wording in the code that prohibits this kind of connection. A "definition" is hardly anything to go on. I can call my home alarm system anything I want. At the end of the day it's just a resi-burg panel that happens to carry a ULC sticker which allows it to be used in a very specific application. You're "missing the boat" here just as Robert has.
Robert wasn't even posting in this thread and he decided to stick his nose in.
And once again, you'd be wrong. NEC clearly states you must maintain a physical seperation between the two so you can't accidentally apply high voltage to the low voltage wiring and that's about it. The relay bases on the smoke alarms are frequently used to fire off low voltage appliances like buzzers, strobes and bells. If you look at any of the connection diagrams supplied with the Firex unit (for example), how
*are* you going to accomplish what you want to do if you can't at some time have the 110VAC and the low voltage in the same box? Now go back and play in the sandbox and let me take care of the Toilet Duck.
Anytime you connect a fire device to a burglar alarm it becomes a "fire alarm" and all applicable codes must be followed. Including but not limited to appropriate fire cabling to the keypads and sirens, proper detector coverage and spacing, and.... yes.. devices that are listed for FACP initiation. In this case the BRK smokes are not listed for that purpose.
Please quote me the chapter and verse in NFPA (or NEC) where it says this. The "definition" doesn't count. It's only a definition and has more to do with helping an AHJ to properly identify the components used in a listed fire alarm system.
I can purchase an Edwards EST-2 and connect any number of devices to it that I want. It won't be a "fire alarm system" unless all of the devices, components and wiring that comprise the "system" comply. I can hook up any number of smoke alarms (110VAC or 24VDC powered) and you can't say "squat" unless of course I intend to use them instead of properly supervised detectors and still try to make the system fly as a
*fire alarm system*.
Fire alarm systems have been used to *monitor* such things as dampers (the last time I looked the limit switches used are *NOT* listed for connection to a fire alarm system but they're used for the purpose of
*monitoring* the position of the dampers). Ditto for such things as "fire pump running" indicators, "generator trouble", exhaust fan "on" switches, etc. The contacts in these devices are *NOT* specifically listed for connection to a fire alarm system yet it's done all the time.
I can "monitor" a 110VAC smoke alarm relay with my burg panel if I want. I can even get the zone it's connected to to report to my CS or my pager. There is *NOTHING* in NEC (or NFPA) that specifically prohibits this. Heck... I can even hook up my 110VAC smoke alarm to a Visonic voice dialer. This does NOT make the components I used a "listed fire alarm system" by any stretch of the imagination. You're approaching this from the "wrong end" of the equation. Talk to your local AHJ.
Would I "cobble" something like this together for a customer? Not on your Nelly! Now ask Bass what prompted him to suggest to a licensed, qualified *installer* how to circumvent the primary phone line on a
*listed fire alarm communicator* so that it reports a "test signal" on the second line.
From where I sit, he's the horse's ass and you've just made the costume complete.
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