Notifier

Actually, you'd be much more universally self descriptive, if you left off the last 5 words.

While Jim and I may disagree on many subjects, this is one where we are in complete agreement. With 67 different options selectable on a per- zone basis, Napco's larger panels are the most configurable on the market, hands down.

In addition a wealth of security and communication options, Napco's Gemini P3200 and P9600 boards have a powerful scheduling features. The panels auto-arm on schedule, throw relays and send lighting control signals based on time of day, day of week, date of month, week of month, etc. User codes can be enabled and disabled on schedule to permit a sitter or maid to enter only when authorized.

With a little ingenuity, events (door opening, motion detected, system arming, etc) can be combined with pre-scheduled occurrences in complex AND, OR and NOR logic.

I've taught hundreds of DIYers to program Napco Gemini panels. One recent visitor to this newsgroup was having trouble with his system. He purchased the hardware (PCI-MINI) and Napco provided software so that he could diagnose and correct some issues with the system.

I do agree that Napco's P9600 and P3200 are more complicated to program than most. Fortunately Napco's latest version of Quickloadr(tm) software makes it easy to walk someone through the procedure, even over the phone.

Nothing seems difficult once you understand it. I have programmed Napco starting with a chip burner on panels from the CCI-7 on. The first one I used the PCD 2000/3000 software on was an MA 3000. As far as a learning curve I'd say the Bosch G series is more troublesome to program, if for no other reason that you can't error check it with the software.

alarmlife shouldn't be so complicated

| | Well I guess we all can only aspire to attaining a certain high level | in product quality and capability. ;->

| | I've been using them for so long now, it's really hard for me to see | what all the negativity about them is about. 25/30 years ago, their | method of programing was really very logical and worked well for the | simple panels back then. What could be simpler then counting in | binary? They just didn't project how that style of programing was | going to get so cumbersome as the panel options reached into the | hundreds. And they also underestimated how many would take so long | just to figure out how to open a laptop, much less use one. | | I think other than the fact that they're almost bullet proof (1632 on | up) it' s not that one will regularly use all the functions and | capabilities of the panels, it's just such a confidence thing knowing | that no matter what the client asks for or ever ..... asks for, you | can do it. | | I will say one thing. Once you learn how to program a Napco panel, all | the others are like baby talk. It's only a matter of learning the | mfg's jargon. |

It's the challange that attracts.

Without it, it aint worth it.

Every day is a new puzzle to figure out. Every job a new riddle. The very reason retirement isn't in the picture for me.

If you dumb everything down it's a sure invitation to attracting dumb technicians into the trade.

attracting?....they're already here.

i'm doing a remodel now...all smokes are homerun on...Cat3...nice eh? the house is a concrete flat top so there's no way to rerun anything. I'll show you a pic of the freekin panel...what a disaster. They ran 4 conductor to everything they bothered to cover (hardly any windows) but then beaned off the spares in the wall and only drilled 1/4" holes for the contact wires...so like why would you do that?...the beaned off conductors were in the same circuit, so all they effectively did was double the wire resistance of each run.

| | It's the challange that attracts. | | Without it, it aint worth it. | | Every day is a new puzzle to figure out. Every job a new riddle. The | very reason retirement isn't in the picture for me. | | If you dumb everything down it's a sure invitation to attracting dumb | technicians into the trade. |

m>

Yeah, you're right. I mistated that. It should have read attract ... " more "

Anyway. I stated this back when CID came into popular use. CID simply gives installers an excuse to not test their programing and installation and gives them an "out" from having to understand something. I find it unique and I'm kind of gratified that with VoIP, the old standby 4/2 is the more reliable format. So much for "progress".

In my opinion you are incorrect about not needing to test, from what I see that is format agnostic and much more of a problem with 4/2 and undefined signals.

You may have a point about people not understanding the reporting process however compare that to not knowing how to use a sliderule and protractor since the advent of calculators, it ends up being something that isn't really required anymore unless you are dealing with old equipment..

And yes 4/2 works better for VoIP however I wouldn't trust any format with that

I have always heard different points of viw on this; but what if you used the CAT 3 for a data loop with popits or SIMS? Would you have to use approved fire wire to the smokes just for the data loop in residential? I heard it both ways.

IMO...yes should be firewire...just my opinion especially since the cost is negligiableele. Besides, I run firewire for power, and interior siren anyway.

| > i'm doing a remodel now...all smokes are homerun on...Cat3...nice eh? the | > house is a concrete flat top so there's no way to rerun anything. I'll | > show | > you a pic of the freekin panel...what a disaster. They ran 4 conductor to | > everything they bothered to cover (hardly any windows) but then beaned off | > the spares in the wall and only drilled 1/4" holes for the contact | > wires...so like why would you do that?...the beaned off conductors were in | > the same circuit, so all they effectively did was double the wire | > resistance | > of each run. | >

| > alarm panel disaster of the month | >

| > | | > | It's the challange that attracts. | > | | > | Without it, it aint worth it. | > | | > | Every day is a new puzzle to figure out. Every job a new riddle. The | > | very reason retirement isn't in the picture for me. | > | | > | If you dumb everything down it's a sure invitation to attracting dumb | > | technicians into the trade. | > | | >

| >

| |

CID is a great time saver especially with setting up the cs end of it. Any installer that doesn't test everything is dumb anyway.

and as Mark says..I wouldn't trust anything on voip right now.

| > i'm doing a remodel now...all smokes are homerun on...Cat3...nice eh? the | > house is a concrete flat top so there's no way to rerun anything. I'll show | > you a pic of the freekin panel...what a disaster. They ran 4 conductor to | > everything they bothered to cover (hardly any windows) but then beaned off | > the spares in the wall and only drilled 1/4" holes for the contact | > wires...so like why would you do that?...the beaned off conductors were in | > the same circuit, so all they effectively did was double the wire resistance | > of each run. | >

| > alarm panel disaster of the month

| > | > alarmlife shouldn't be so complicated | > | >

| > | | > | It's the challange that attracts. | > | | > | Without it, it aint worth it. | > | | > | Every day is a new puzzle to figure out. Every job a new riddle. The | > | very reason retirement isn't in the picture for me. | > | | > | If you dumb everything down it's a sure invitation to attracting dumb | > | technicians into the trade. | > | | | Yeah, you're right. I mistated that. | It should have read attract ... " more " | | Anyway. I stated this back when CID came into popular use. CID simply | gives installers an excuse to not test their programing and | installation and gives them an "out" from having to understand | something. I find it unique and I'm kind of gratified that with VoIP, | the old standby 4/2 is the more reliable format. So much for | "progress". |

If it's a fire alarm the cable would still have to be listed for the purpose.

On a related subject, when doing combo burg/fire alarms in residences in CT we would occasionally meet inspectors who required not only the smoke detectors to be run with fire alarm cable, but also the sirens, strobes and keypads. That was fine since keypads in those days invariably used ordinary 22/4. We simply made it SOP to run

With newer panels starting to use CAT5 for the keypads and expansion modules the situation is changing. I wonder how long it will take for some of the older inspectors to "catch up" to the new technology. It's easier for me now. I explain what the manufacturer specifies and warn DIY customers to check with the local AHJ.

For the home described in the opening post of this thread I'd terminate the CAT3 and use wireless smokes.

Yah, but it would almost double the price of the system putting in 10 wireless smokes, he opted for 3 wireless and 7 wired, of which 4 will be on firewire, so only a few will remain on Cat 3...not toooo bad.

| > I have always heard different points of viw on | > this; but what if you used the CAT 3 for a data | > loop with popits or SIMS? Would you have to | > use approved fire wire to the smokes just for | > the data loop in residential? I heard it both ways. | | If it's a fire alarm the cable would still have to be | listed for the purpose. | | On a related subject, when doing combo burg/fire | alarms in residences in CT we would occasionally | meet inspectors who required not only the smoke | detectors to be run with fire alarm cable, but also | the sirens, strobes and keypads. That was fine | since keypads in those days invariably used | ordinary 22/4. We simply made it SOP to run | 18/4 fire cable to them and there was no problem. | | With newer panels starting to use CAT5 for the | keypads and expansion modules the situation is | changing. I wonder how long it will take for some | of the older inspectors to "catch up" to the new | technology. It's easier for me now. I explain | what the manufacturer specifies and warn DIY | customers to check with the local AHJ. | | For the home described in the opening post of | this thread I'd terminate the CAT3 and use | wireless smokes. | | -- | | Regards, | Robert L Bass | | =============================>

| Bass Home Electronics | 941-925-8650 | 4883 Fallcrest Circle | Sarasota · Florida · 34233 |

| |

I'd have turned it down. Some places in CT the AHJ can go after the installer and force you to put it into compliance. YMMV.

The AHJ doesn't inspect where this guy is...and believe me I would bring it into specs if it was practical/possible...but there really isn't for the three or so remaining wired ones.

| Bass Home Electronics | 941-925-8650 | 4883 Fallcrest Circle | Sarasota · Florida · 34233 |

| |

That is the rub. In a residential situation if the wire from the control to the SIM or POPIT type device is a data loop, is the "fire" portion then the wire from the popit or SIM to the device? If one has a two wire data loop where there are fire points as well as burg points, it is not clear to some what the exact rule would be as to where the fire wire should start. I know what makes sense, and what I would do, (make it all fire wire) but some have a different view. I have never seen it clearly drawn and labeled in any trusted document I could use as a reference. It is only described in words that some consider vague.

I never had a problem setting up the 4/2 format because I have default programs set up in my laptop with all the standard codes that I use. It hardly ever varies. Except when I have a special signal like water or low temp and then I'd just change the code for that particular zone. And I could make it whatever I wanted unlike CID.

You're right about the testing but theres not too much chance that you're going to find an installer that's using CID that's going to test send every signal to CS.

CID sends faster but if your talking about sending one or two signals there's hardly a difference to be important. If your sending ten or so, ( but when does that ever happen?) then CID is overall faster. CS like it because in the whole theme of their operation, at the end of a shift, they can process a lot more calls. What they don't like and never expected when they kept crying for everyone to use CID is now everyone uses restore signals, so they're right back where they started.

I've got more to say on it but I gotta sign off now. I'll pick this up again next time.

You might want to have him sign a waiver indicating he understands and accepts that it's not up to code.