Need for pool

Nope. You even listed smoke detectors with it. No mention that it isn't "UL Listed" for fire (or that the listing is "pending").

But you list several models of two wire System Sensor smokes... Funny... the panel wasn't even UL Listed for fire back then.

No doubt it's the "few" folks that have bothered to post complaints here (and at the BBB). And I seriously doubt they'll ever buy from you again.

Interesting. The internet archive says differently. I guess it's all part of the ASA conspiracy to discredit you.

*DSC* does NOT list the Napco Firewolf as an acceptable two wire detector. Until the PANEL MANUFACTURER does, there's no way anyone in their right mind would accept the installation. But then, things might be a little different down your way. I keep forgetting about this little thing called the 49th parallel.

Where have I posted anything hateful? I happened to "call you" on a mistake you made. It's one of several. Get over it.

A violation of what?? "Electrical Code"? "NFPA"? "The Charter of Rights and Freedoms"? "The Constitution"?

That's just it. I do.

Funny. I don't see any "Napco" smoke detector product listed as compatible with *any* DSC panel. If you're referring to the listing addemdum available at the Napco website at

only see the 1555, 4020, 5010, and 5020 listed. *DSC*, however, DOES NOT list them with *any* of their panels, therefore no installing or servicing company would use them.

The "master heading" is still "DSC Smoke Detectors". Which is extremely misleading. You must spend a lot of time issuing RMA's for the "dealers" you sell to.

You're wrong Robert. I've been involved in the installation and commissioning of new fire alarm systems for more years than you legally installed alarms. You've only been in the position to say you "legally installed" and serviced alarm equipment from 1983 to 1999 (you yourself could not pull a permit until 1986 though). That's the length of time you held the proper "L" licenses. Of course, this means that "hundreds" of alarm systems you installed between 1979 and 1986 were done so without benefit of the proper permits and those between 1979 and 1983 without a qualified installer.

Uh-huh.

Where did I say they did?

Page rank (as you've often stated), doesn't mean a thing.

What "stolen material" was that?

It's never been "removed". You forgot to "refresh" your browser. I've kept this group apprised of every detail as related to Jim's "Tech-Help" software.

Heh... Nice dodge.

Really?? How do *you* know that?

Really? How do *you* know that?

The good old 3D Bass is back. Dodge, Duck, Deceive.

But "just a panel" isn't a "complete system", now is it Robert?

Bully for you.

I never posted that. And I could care less whether you do or don't.

Not according to the Internet Archive. You listed System Sensor smokes with the Elk panel, Bass, from "day one". And there's no "UL pending" notice anywhere on your site either (that I could see).

I just have a good memory for facts.

They are NOT listed for use by the Panel manufacturer. You can spout this nonsense all day long. It won't alter the fact that you're wrong. No legitimate Dealer would install a two wire smoke detector that wasn't listed as compatible *by* the panel manufacturer. Which brings up a valid question: How many systems have you sold with the *wrong* detectors?

If DSC, Edwards, Simplex, Elk, Napco, Notifier, FireLite or any other PANEL manufacturer lists a smoke detector as UL (or ULC) cross-listed with their specific PANEL, I'll install it. Any conscientious installer would as well. I wonder how many of the systems *you* sell get "red tagged" for non-compliant smokes? This is the time when you really hope the guys doing the inspections know what they're doing.

Heh.... right. It's been sitting on your workbench.

Burtek is Elk's only national distribution channel that can sell the M1-Gold. Oddly enough, their head office happens to be in Vancouver. They're now called "Burtek-ADI" by the way, but back when I purchased my unit, it was just plain "Burtek".

That's *your* specialty.

Heh... right.

You made that one up. Or should I say "you've misquoted, misled, obfuscated, conjured and outright lied for years".

Now who's "making up stories"???

More baseless accusations. I challenge you to back these up with cold hard facts.

Sure, Bass.

Pity. Now everyone else will have the benefit of knowing the *real* reason why you ignore me.

Ahhhh, speaking of "twisted" would you like to substantiate your story about me hitting children with a hammer? Let's see you pull up anything that even remotely sounds like your claim that I attacked small children. Hmmmm can't seem to coroborate another of your lies about someone? What a sorry dying f*ck you are. Pitiful you couldn't have led a better life. I guess once someone like you decides they're just a piece of shit, you've figured that there's just no use trying to remedy your life and you're just going to go to your grave without any remorse.

Oh well, I guess we can take the bad news with the good.

In fact, I KNOW we can.

Have a good da ...... well ... no. I guess you don't have any good days left. Sorry, just can't resist reminding you, as often as possible, that it's time to spend just one more moment thinking about your impending demise. It's called "Positive thinking" You know .... the more you think about something, the more likely it's going to happen .......

I wonder how many of the systems *you* sell get "red

DIYER's pulling permits? I wonder how many of the systems he sells get inspected. I will bet there is about zero time spent talking about the requirements of permits during his sales process. I have never visited his website. Is there anything notices there at all about permitting and inspections throught the local juridicitons.

message

To freaking early in the morning. Probably to late but I thought I had better clean it up before the "Spellcheck Patrol" got me. :o]

So far, none. We already know that Olson has no problem with that since he never installed anything.

DIYers? How about so-called "professional" installers? I spent 24 years running a small, central station alarm company. We pulled permits in every town that required them. A few rural towns in CT didn't but most required a permit. I also pulled permits when we took over commercial fire alarms. Very often there would be a surprised look on the clerk's face followed by, "That place has an alarm? We don't have a record of any permit there." You see, almost none of the local alarm companies ever pull permits unless the job is new construction. I seriously doubt Worthy pulls permits unless he knows he'll get caught.

The funny thing is Olson whining about "non-compliant" smokes even though he has finally learned (from me) that the ones I sell are indeed compliant. He didn't even know how to check or where to look to find out which smoke detectors are listed for use with a specific panel. Furthermore, he's so lacking in experience and knowledge that he didn't know (until I told him) that detector manufacturers, as well as panel manufacturers, can and do list smokes for use with control panels. What a moron!

As to notices regarding permitting, the process varies from town to town, county to county, state to state and by country as well. It is impossible to provide accurate instructions for all locations. I check competitors' websites from time to time and have yet to find anyone offering accurate guidelines concerning permits.

Why didn't you answer about DIYer's? That was the topic. Why spin it? Duck it? Dodge it?

We didn't pull permits in any town that required them.

You couldn't have anyway without a license? Or... you would have had to act like all other unlicensed contractors and have someone else pull one for you?

So your business was limited to those few rural towns...what a shame.

Again, how did you do this from 1979-1986?

"Why are you here? You need a license to pull a permit?"

And you have knowledge of this? You really are far removed from what actually happens in the industry. Those that don't pull permits, in areas that require them, either don't have a license or their insurance/worker comp isn't up to date. Some of the nationals, giving systems away for "Free", where not taking on the overhead. There isn't any reason not to pull a permit. It is part of the job cost, which you have a hard time believing exists. So don't classify those that can't pull a permit into something you would like people to believe, like legal local companies don't pull permits by choice.

You would loose that bet, Bubble Butt.

Did you ever think (which would be a challenge for you, I know) to simply state, "Check with your local jurisdiction about permitting and plan approval requirements for this product. Failure to comply may result in penalties from local and/or state authorities." But than again, it might look like you are supporting regulation and chase away the illegal contractors you sell to, which might cut into your bottom line. Question is, how deep.

"Worthy" babbled:

Uh, no. The topic is "Need for pool" but you and Olson turned it into a flame.

Shame on you.

I carried the CT L1 low voltage electrical contractor's license. Where are you getting your information from, Olson? You ought to know by now he's a pathalogical liar.

You think so? You probably believe I only sell a little bit online, too. Call your local ADI rep and ask him who is the largest client (other than the nationals) in my region.

I had licensed installers working for me long before I got the L1.

Yes, I do. I've heard the same thing from numerous inspectors and city clerk employees. They practiucally never see an application for a permit for an alarm system installation. Only when it's new construction do they get the applications.

You really are trying hard to believe that to be so.

I didn't say *why* most alarm companies don't bother pulling permits. I only said they don't. I'll leave the explanation to you.

I know what it costs to do the job right. I also know that many alarm companies don't even try to do anything right. They just slap in the least cost "system" so they get that recurring monthly revenue rolling and rush to the next victim. I didn't realize you hadn't paid your workman's compensation insurance and that you are unlicensed. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

I didn't say you were "legal" (I think you meant to say, "legitimate" but with that limited vocabulary of yours... oh, never mind).

That's easy to say, but prove it.

Naah. I tell people what is required by the national fire alarm code, explain that the local AHJ may have his own requirements and suggest they file for a permit. I also send all the required hardware documentation and (where available) provide a load calc spreadsheet. Then I teach them how to do the installation. Fortunately, the job is so simple any primate can master it. After all, you're in the business.

Illegal contractors? Care to state which ones those might be? Names, dates and addresses, please.

Excuse me. Than answer the question. Never mind, the answer is you don't know.

Oh ya, shame on me for all the dirty little tricks we play on line.

About what? and try to spell check while you are thinking of a good anwer. "Pathological"

Your region? Sarasota? And all the rural surrounding towns? You forget who you are talking to. The hardest job there is the CSI wantabes. With only one DNA string and no dental records the place is a hoot.

Oh, that makes it OK then. Is that like OJ making action movies long before Nichole.

A few things. One, you don't talk numerous inspectors at all. Two, you don't talk to city clerk employees at all. So, as usual, you are talking to hear yourself talk. Third, are you aware that with many cities, with their budget cuts, have waived permits on residential post-wires? Not all of them, but many of them. Instead there is a registration process so that the city still gets their money and they retain the right to inspect the systems randomly. That would probably never happen unless there was a complaint by the homeowner. And fourth, it is "practically".

No, your past and present comments prove it.

I did explain and you post without facts.

Really!! This discussion just recently took place and you showed then that you don't have a clue. Or did you purposely leave out all business overhead expenses to support your claim that alarm companies are ripping off the consumer.

I also know that many alarm

You don't know that, you assume that.

They just slap in the least

So in your infinite wisdom, you believe the world would be better off if all the professional alarm companies would just dry up and blow away. Than you would be the savior selling product to all those poor souls.

Where the hell did that come from? You know how to look it up. Posting without verification, or even worse, verifying but posting rubbish anyway further proves you to be a liar, someone that would try to hurt someone's business, as well as, open to whatever you may receive in return. Be careful with your fun.

Well I didn't spend any time at the prison library but I meant legal.

LEGAL- 1) Having a formal status derived from law. (Such as a company that is licensed)

2) Conforming to or permitted by law or established rules. (IF.SO. Chapter 489 Part II & 61G6) 3) One that conforms to rules or the law. (Not you).

How? By posting my outstanding permits on line for you. Right!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, I am and you are not. So I guess that leaves out at least one primate, doesn't it.

That is just it, you don't know who you are selling equipment to, let alone giving out info critical to the life, safety and welfare of the public.

Don't have a clue and neither do you.

Isn't that like an unlicensed person operating a plumbing business and saying, "Don't worry, I may not have a license, but my employees do."

and then using that time period as his work experience requirement when applying for a license, then lying on the app to get his license by failing to mention the unfortunate felony conviction.

Figured that out all by yourself, did you? Well, that is correct. I don't keep tabs on who gets inspected. I sell hardware online. Is this too complicated for you?

No, shame on you for being a jerk. All kidding aside I'm sure you try to do a proper job for your customers. You probably realize I do, too, but being a jerk you prefer to pretend otherwise.

Spell checking is Tom's responsibility. I have enough trouble trying to type without also worrying about spelling.

Southwest Florida.

According to state law, yes. We were required to have at least one L1 contractor on staff. That's nothing unusual. The owners of many alarm companies are not licensed techs. When I had enough documented hours I took the test and got my journeyman's ticket. I then accumulated the required hours for the second test, passed it and received my L1 contractor's license. By then I already had two L1's and several L5's (journeymen) working for me. That's standard trade practice in CT and fully compliant with the law.

You have no idea how many inspectors I know. In the 24 years I ran an alarm company I had inspections by every one of them in Hartford County and several other counties. The local FM in those days was also a personal friend of mine. These days I hardly ever need to speak to an inspector, although I have sent copies of the Florida statute to several of them when they tried to stop customers from installing their own fire alarm systems. In each of those few cases we prevailed.

Again, you have no idea who I speak to now or with whom I had dealings then.

Umm, Usenet is a text medium.

I spoke of what I saw in my 24 years running an alarm company. I sold the business before your idol, Bush wrecked the economy.

That has nothing to do with what I said. The fact remains, regardless what some Florida towns might be doing today, that many (perhaps most) alarm companies rarely pull required permits. I know that for a fact and I suspect you do, too. Olson, whi never installed anything, doesn't know it.

You explained that you don't have a license or your insurance isn't paid up? Which is it, no license or no insurance? Or is it both?

I did not say that all alarm companies are ripping off consumers. You seem a bit sensitive to this sort of discussion. Hmm.

Nope, I've seen it. I've taken over so many sloppy, slip-shod, incompetent and incomplete "professional" installations over the years it's plain as day many alarm companies just don't care about their clients at all. Fortunately, not all are like that. There are a few like Bob C still around. I pull your chain now and then but I wouldn't be surprised if you turn out to be a decent operator.

Naah. I would prefer if rip-offs like Sonitrash and *most* of the so-called "authorized dealers" would go away. I'm not trying to be anyone's Savior. That job is alrteady taken. I just sell hardware and systems to people who want to do their own work. That will probably always remain a small fraction of the security industry -- maybe 2% at best. I'm content taking over that

2%. :^)

You don't like it when someone twists your words? Try citing me accurately next time and I'll give you the same courtesy.

As I recall, you are the one who called relentless, unproked flames "kicks and giggles." If you don't like getting kicked back, try keeping your feet to yourself.

Having never been in prison other than as a lay minister, I can't tell what you might have read in the library.

It just goes to show how easy it is to accuse and how difficult to disprove baseless accusations, doesn't it? Once again, if you don't like receiving it, don't be so quick to dish it out. You haven't a clue what my business is, how I treat my clients or what my experience is. You repeat Olson's lies as though they were gospel without bothering to check first. Yet you're quite sensitive about having someone slap you right back. If you want to be treated fairly, try doing the same.

I guaranty you're not out of your league as to raw intelligence, knowledge and experience. That's not arrogance. It's just fact.

If I thought I could make as good a living installing alarms as I can selling online, I'd buy an alarm company or take the simple test, get the license and start an installation business. It's not rocket science.

Bullshit! I sell alarms to people who want to install their own systems. That's no more dangerous to the "life, safety and welfare of the public" than selling bicycles, clothes or apple pie.

BTW, I also sell alarms and lots of other stuff to federal and state government agancies and to every branch of the military. In addition, I sell to numerous Fortune 500 companies. I've been considering building a separate website just for government buyers. If that aspect of my business keeps growing at its current rate, I may even decide to sell of the alarm websites.

You said my clients are illegal. Now you admit you haven't a clue. Nice work.

Sort of. Licensed contractors performed and supervised the work in accordance with state law. They made the final decisions about what went where and how it was done though I knew the job well enough to design the systems long before I had the required hours for the exam. When I had enough hours to qualify I took the test and got my own license. I had the same guys working for many years, though. Eventually I sold the business to two of my long-time techs. They're still at it and, from recent reports, doing quite well.

And that about sums it up, Bob. I get a hoot out of Bass "side-stepping" my response by zeroing in on yours. He's a "flim-flam man". He'd sell refrigerators to Eskimos and provide the "DIY instructions" to wire up their igloos.

That would be an L5, Bob. You need an L5 to pull a permit. I'm pretty sure you've never held an "L1".

"Limited electrical line contractor's license (L-1).

The holder of this license may perform only work limited to line construction, including distribution systems, and their allied work, for public and private companies; installation, maintenance and repair of all high-voltage cable splicing and pulling wire for all systems in excess of 2,400 volts; traffic signal and highway lighting installation, maintenance and repair. The requirements to qualify for this license examination shall be two (2) years as properly licensed journeyperson or at least six (6) years of equivalent experience and training.

I'm sure you've installed a lot of "traffic lights"...

That's an L5, Bob. You forgot to mention that you took that test in

1989 after you'd been caught installing an alarm system without a permit. "Whoops!"

L5's

L6's

And you still can't get your "L's" straight. Considering you had an L5 from 1989 until 1999, I find that interesting.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:cFIWjD_4v9EJ:

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:cFIWjD_4v9EJ:

teehee teehee :)

Which begs the question... How did you manage to "pass inspections" when you weren't even a licensed contractor (L5) until 1989? In CT, you can't pull a permit without a contractors license. I'd love to see you explain that.

I understand you frequently spoke to Santa Claus.

"You have no idea how many inspectors I know." "Again, you have no idea who I speak to now or with whom I had dealings then."

Look remotely familiar to you, Bass?

As you are...

You sell the *wrong hardware*, Bass. You sell "systems" you've never even seen, let alone serviced or installed. You have no clue.

Ditto!

I can't remember... Are you "pink" now... or a bilious shade of "yellow"?

Olson hasn't lied.

You'd have to move to state without the strict licensing standards which Florida subscribes to.

How would you categorize selling a non-compliant smoke detector with a DSC 1864? Seems to me that you have to make a few changes on that page (at the very least). Oh... and by the way... DSC no longer manufactures the Power 832, Power 864, or the PC-1555. Get with the program, dude!

Well, that is correct. I don't

So why do you post rubbish about systems not being inspected when you don't know?

You didn't have a bit of trouble jumping into the subject matter when Tom and I were having our little back and forth, which was all in jest. The only difference was that you jumped in with a bunch of derogatory remarks as you usually do.

Oh, a lot of government installations happening there I'll bet. That is the same area that the local city clerks sent a letter out to everyone stating that one does not need a license to install alarm systems. Must be the same city clerks you were talking to. Also, it could be the reason that the inspectors you are talking to don't see any permit applications coming in.

CT is not southwest Florida Dorothy.

I know one.

Send me a copy of what you sent them. I am truely interested in seeing it.

So you admit that what you post is ancient history and really is not up date with what actually happens in today's world since you just sell parts online.

I sold the

And where did I ever post my political views or support for one party over another?

The fact remains, regardless what

Well, lets take my city for an example. It has a little over 140,000 residents. It is a planned unit development with a mix of residential, commercial and light industrial. The city has, in an ordinance, a registration requirement for alarm companies that perform installations, service and monitoring. There is also a police registration requirement for the alarm user. We now have 224 alarm companies registered to do business in the city. The alarm user cannot get a police registration until there is a final inspection on the system listed in the building department. No police registration, no response. Most of the 104 municipalities in the tri-county area have the same exact process. So, I guess I post on facts that can be substantiated rather than assumptions.

Can't find were I said that. Please repost it since it is fresh in your mind.

You said you haven't installed in years so how could you?

How many times, in hundreds of posts, did you refer to the professional installer's client as "the victim"? Don't do the Bassanova shuffle by pointing out the word "all". You know you constantly refer to the professional company's clients as victims to support your DIY stance.

You seem a

As a professional, of course I do.

incompetent

In CT? Ancient history

Fortunately,

And you have seen his installs for comparison? Just making a point Bob C. Nothing directed at you.

I pull your

Twentieth year in business and was national VP of operations with 17 offices around the country for 8 years prior to that.

Is this a contest of who can kick harder? Or do want to keep the giggles in it? It is "unprovoked"...hehehehe! See that didn't hurt did it.

Right!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, it only proves that only a fool would put his business info in the street for the likes of you to play with. By not doing so doesn't prove that the info doesn't exist. It is you that has a hard time proving your baseless accusations.

Once again, if you don't like receiving it,

Only what you tell us. And...based on your actions here, your right, I haven't a clue about whether it is a lie or not.

You repeat Olson's lies as

I have tried to have civil correspondence with you, only to have my name or references to my name used in other posts, by you, that wasn't at all necessary since I wasn't even involved. Seen how you play early on. You respect no one, ever.

Thank you.

If you say so.

Yep..there is alot of that type of clientele in the southwest region of Florida. Most of the people living in that area of the state signed the Constitution, were in the Civil War or had such companies as Papst Blue Ribbon. The average age there is "dead and don't realize it." Oh and it is "agencies" Your typing is going to hell in a hand basket.

Sorta like your comments that most alarm companies don't pull permits but you don't know who. You just heard. Well, unlicensed contactors need a place to buy equipment without getting ask for a license or sale tax certificates at a wholesale house. Where do they buy with no questions ask? Online maybe? If you don't ask, you don't care and if you don't care you probably have some in your clientele and don't misinterpret that to mean that I am suggesting that you are doing something illegal. Without consideration maybe for what they are doing to the very industry that you claim is ripping people off, but not illegal.

"Eventually I sold the business to two of my long-time techs. They're still at it and, from recent reports, doing quite well."

You lie Mr.BAss...You Lie......

I posted truth about "professionally" installed systems not being inspected because trash companies like yours never bother to pull permits.

Yep, kicks and giggles. Remember?

Whereas you never say anything derogatory, right? Listen, little fellow. If you can't take the heat, go jiminex yourself.

Bought a new GPS, did you?

Go download it yourself, moron. It's available on the MyFlorida.com website.

I don't give a rat's olson how much you love Bush.

How unfortunate for your victims.

I knew you'd finally get it right one day.

No, this is ASA where you and several other morons routinely post insults, lies and unprovoked flames.

You keep attacking and you'll be slapped right back. Show a little decency and you'll receive the same.

You're lying again. You started attacking me before I ever said a word against you. You still post denegrating comments about me or my business in threads where I've not even posted. Then you cry like a baby when I leuck-slap you for it.

You seem to think that because my office is in SW Florida most of my clients are also here. I know it's difficult for you but stop for a moment and try real hard to think. I sell on the Internet.

I never said I didn't know whom. You said that.

I have a surprise for you, my ill-informed friend. Wholesale suppliers rarely insist on a license. What they want is orders -- lots of them.

Coincidentally, that's the same place that every branch of the military and virtually every branch of government routinely shops -- the Internet. While third-rate busineesmen like you hang onto the idea that the only way to market is through brick and mortar alarm installing dealerships, ripping off your customers with outrageous monthly rates to monitor flimsy, inadequate systems, more intelligent people are learning to work in the largest marketplace on Earth, the Web. Whine about it all you want. Companies like mine are growing leaps and bounds while most conventional alarm dealers are watchiung revenues fall year after year.

Aha! You finally admit it. Your real concern has nothing to do with quality, service, legality or ethics. It's all about trying to stifle competition. You're afraid that more people will begin to DIY as they realize there's an alternative to the rip-off prices you and people like you have been charging for years.