Major shortcoming in Paradox new panel lineup

Since many panels require additional keystrokes (like some Napco, some Honeywell, and some Bosch panels) it doesn't seem that it would be an issue on new installations with properly trained customers. If it is you could always sell them key fobs to use to arm and disarm the system.

As I stated in my post, it's the casual user that will create the problem. Most often they are not trained and regardless, it still means increased customer support. We don't use Napco or some of those other brands for exactly that reason i.e. ease of use. The logic behind making that change escapes me. Big step backwards. I've spoken to some other dealers and they feel the same way. Designing their new panels to be as UN-intuitive as some of the competition hardly seems progressive. You're not going to give keyfobs to the cleaning staff and frankly fobs represent a security compromise that I typically try to talk my customers out of e.g. women has her purse stolen and their alarm has just become useless as the perps can now not only let themselves into the house, they can disarm the alarm at the press of a button. I know, I know, remove the fob serial number via download, but that's often after the horses have left the barn...

i.e. ease of use.

heh

Yeah, we know Mark. I guess there's others like you who don't know which end of a screw driver to hold on to, also. It's all relative, I guess. If one can't figure out how to open a door, he considers the person who can, a genius.

It really is understandable why you think Napco panels are so difficult to use, though. Unfortunately, you're not even intelligent enough to figure out that someone who can, is simply brighter than you are. It's just easier for you to justify your ignorance by agreeing with the people who don't use them because they can't figure them out or bright enough to be able to teach people how to use them.

I know how much you like simple ..... it's so becoming to someone in your station of life.

I am in total agreement with Reg. In the residential market where I sell services, anything that makes a panel more difficult to operate is a step backward. In fact, if the truth be known, about 30% of the buying public likely shouldn't have an alarm that involves authorities, since they do not and will not learn to use it properly, regardless of the level of training. It seems that Paradox has not done their homework with their customers (buying dealers) before coming out with this major operating change, which is a step backwards in my view. I see all sorts of user problems with this way of operating, some of which Reg has pointed out. They have very stupidly destandardized both the 1738 and 1759 panels as well, with no replacement except this new line.Plus even worse, the new keypads are not backward compatible, so if any of the very many Spectra panels I have in service dies, and I have to replace it with the new technology, both the panel and keypad must be replaced, and the client has to totally relearn his alarm system. I am also reserving judgment on their "Stay D" operating methodology although I think that will end up leading to more operating problems as well (all zones always armed....you specifically disarm certain zones to enter through the system).

I too have to rethink my loyalty to Paradox and may well end up using a different brand of panel as my 'standard install". I also intend to express my disappointment directly to Paradox. But at the same time, I don't expect they will change things, since they probably factored in a certain level of "dealer loss" in their decision to go this route. However, the least they could do is ramp up the 1738 / 1759 panels again for those of us who chose not to use their new systems.

R.H.Campbell Home Security Metal Products Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Ok, an update to my last post. Spoke to Burtek/ADI (now one and the same) and it seems the "stay D" feature is an option only on the new line of panels, which means if you do NOT enable it, the new line of panels works as before, and the customer can simply arm and disarm with the code in the regular manner. However, they HAVE discontinued the 1738 and 1759 line of panels which is a bad move since they cannot supply the new panels (in production now but still not available to dealers). I have also been assured that the older keypads will continue to be available from the factory for some years to come in order to honour their 5 year warranty to us. However, still not too bright a move since the new keypads won't work with the older panels.

I'm still not convinced they have their act together, but I will continue to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is one case where I really hope they prove me wrong......

RHC

I could be wrong but some of what you typed there might have been insulting

Are you sure about this Robert? I was transferred to someone at Paradox that was described as a "senior tech support representative" and he said there was no way to provide simple arming and disarming with the code alone on the new SP-5000 and SP-6000. The Winnipeg Burtek/ADI counter staff were told the same thing when they spoke with Paradox tech support.

Reg

Jeez, I got that from the local Burtek manager here and he was adamant that this was the case. I hope that is the case Reg, but I'm gonna have to do some more digging. Apparently there is only one guy who is doing all the training on these panels and he's spread pretty thin across the country. It's possible that they aren't clear at tech support themselves, but this question is so important to me that I will have to find out absolutely for sure.....

RHC

I don't use Paradox, but Ademco stuff is like that and I've never had anyone have a problem with

1234 Away 1234 Stay 1234 Off 1234 Chime kinda the same thing you're talking about, no?

Seems logical at least.

In this instance I disagree, Bob. Pressing a single extra key, such as "Home" or "Away" is just not complicated, especially since the vast majority of installations are for new customers who will be instructed that this is the way to operate the alarm. It's not as though most already have a system and must now learn a whole new procedure.

Also, many people prefer to press a key to select an operating mode such as "Home," "Away" or "Off" after entering a code. I think you underestimate the average user. Of course, since I deal primarily with DIY, it may be that my average customer is more on the ball than the average user. :^)

I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this point Bob. I want nothing to do with the way Ademco operates. This is simply a foreign method of operating versus DSC or Paradox methodology. It may well be as you say that new customers can be trained, but I prefer to stay with the simplest form of operating any panel. Your DIY clients are probably more conscious of operating procedures versus the more casual user of professionally installed alarm systems, and they probably are more "aware" of the intricacies of at least the operations of an alarm system by dint of their interest in the whole subject, so it might not present much of an issue, but I believe it will for the average user. And those who have a panel (and keypad) replaced under warranty will have to relearn the damn thing.

Perhaps I may be making too much of an issue over this, but I don't think so. I really don't want to abandon a whole line of products which has proven to be superb up to this point, but might have to. I know Reg feels the same way, since he called me on it....

I have to confirm this yet with Paradox.

RHC

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>

I just received a return phone call from the senior Paradox tech and they confirmed that they have received similar feedback from many dealers and the addition of simple 4-digit code arming and disarming is on their list of "future enhancements" but it will not happen in the short-term (not even the next release) and there is no possibility of the 1759 and 1738 remaining in production until that change.

This same senior tech also added that while arming or disarming requires an additional key i.e. Arm 1234 or Off 1234, the system can be configured such that disarming during an entry delay warning can be accomplished by simply entering the code. This might address the most urgent customer service implications in that you won't be dealing with the panic striken casual user that can't figure out how to disarm things. Despite this consolation, the inability to arm with a simple code entry will result in a lot of casual users being unable to reliably arm the system.

With nearly 20 years of installed hardware out there that operates simply and easily by entering a code, installing something that goes against that standard is not something that we will enter into without evaluating the consequences. So it appears that our decision will have to be to go with DSC in the interim.

BTW what makes matters worse...why go against the unintuitive standard (used by Ademco, etc.) of entering the code followed by the desired action i.e. 1234 On or 1234 Off? Instead they've got it configured so that the command precedes the code i.e. Arm 1234 or Off 1234.

Reg Siemens Tower Security Systems Inc.

Ok, let me see if I have this straight Reg. Paradox has now confirmed they have discontinued a perfectly good line of products before they even have the replacements in place so when dealers are out of stock of the 1738 and 1759's, we will have to replace a defective board with a board AND keypad with a panel line that isn't even available yet. And they've also gone against even conventional standards used by others to set a new backward standard of their own..And they backhandedly admit they didn't talk to their customers before going ahead with these design changes.

Brilliant !! This has got to be up right up there (exceeding even DSC's wireless move) for nomination for the " Stupidest Engineering Move of 2007".

Don't these companies ever REALLY talk to their customers ????

RHC

a

I don't have a problem with what they are doing other than the fact their product information appears confusing, they need to make more of a distinction of what is low/mid and high in their panel lineup within a catagory (like Spectra)

If all you are doing is crying about an additional command after putting in the code then get over it

I don't see why, without getting into a panel debate it's much easier arming an Ademco panel in different modes than a DSC (like say Instant), also chime mode etc, both panels have their share of cryptic commands however to me DSC is worse on several more common commands

And I like DSC

You forgot

1234 Instant 1234 Maximum 1234 Bypass xx

I can't say I've had a problem explaining a systems commands regardless of manufacturer, even Napco

Well Mark, I guess you and I will also have to agree to disagree as well. To me, this is a backward step and one that will cause clients grief. Paradox really blew it this time !!!

I also don't appreciate Paradox simply stopping production of a product line on short notice without a replacement product in place. At the moment, there are no Spectra panels to be had, and the new product replacement is not yet available at the dealers. What do I tell a client that comes to me and wants an alarm panel. She's seen the high end LCD keypads I use, loves them because they are both attractive as well as easy to use. No cryptic commands, no * plus number to enter for menus, just arm and disarm with four digits, or arm with the quick arm button and use a code to disarm. And a simple, plain English language read out. Plus there isn't even a compatible LCD keypad made yet for the new line of panels ! And DSC's LCD keypad doesn't even compare...

At this point in time, I have perhaps five or six panels in stock. When they run out in a week or so, I don't have a replacement panel to use. The ones I do have, I should be keeping as replacement stock for service.

Time for a vacation for my son. What the hell....we have too many customers anyway !! He can do any service work until this shit sorts itself out.....:)))

RHC