A few more for Nick!

Lots of good ones there some people never learn

Oh you guys are just ..... picky picky!

The scary thing is that I don't think I'm ever going to run out of material. The last four verifications I've done involving modifications to existing systems have all turned up multiple installation errors. One Mircom FX-2000 panel I just completed the report on had six VI labels on it from four different techs all working for Mircom. Their own techs are incapable of identifying an incorrectly installed control! That'll be added to the site over the weekend.

"120 VAC for the Edwards Power Supply is wired up with 18/5 fire alarm cable. Does "doubling up" make it "OK"?"

I'm not getting into the 'double up' thing again, but 110V on a red 18/5 I certainly wouldn't expect! I may have cut right into it and destroyed the cutting edge of my Klein's!

I am more cynical than you - I believe they ARE capable of identifying an incorrectly installed control. They just choose not to. Could be laziness, could be their instructions.

This is one of the reasons I think that fire alarm inspections should be performed by a third party. Installers may make more of an effort if they know that their work will be inspected (thoroughly) by someone who, A) knows what they are doing and B) ISN'T their buddy.

I know that the company I previously worked for frowned upon making a service ticket for an installation error I found during an inspection unless I could spin it so that it was billable. If I could correct it without taking too much time I would and call the installer later and give him crap - a lot of it required a service tech to come out and mgmt would give me crap for writing the finding down on the inspection form. All but the service supervisor - who used to say, "I'm glad you're on our team." Some of the things I found had been glossed over by the previous inspector - I can only assumed he had been sufficiently cowed.

I wonder if that had anything to do with my being fired for wrecking a truck...

Some time ago, for a short while, I was all for having any/every alarm system inspected in the same manner as is required by the electrical and other building trades. HOWEVER, since that time and over many years, I've come to see that it's all talk and show and very little action. It seems to me that the so called "inspections" generally fall into a few categories.

1/ If you're new in the trade, the inspectors are real hard on you for quite a long time. It's sort of like an initiation into "the club" so to speak. 2/ After you've been around for awhile, and the "inspectors" get to know you .... and your work style/ethic/standards, they don't do as thorough a job of "inspecting". 3/ After you've invited them out to lunch or dinner a few times, the inspection amounts to the "inspector" getting out of his car, standing in the driveway, looking at the building being worked on, filling out a check list and then driving away. 4/ Once you've given them holiday gifts, bottles of wine or booze, game tickets, a weekend in the Pocono's, you can then ask them to ignore certain things on jobs that otherwise wouldn't pass "inspection"

In the meantime, the installations of the company get sloppyer and sloppyer since now one now has to meet any standards. Ultimately it all depends on the standards of the owners or managers of the installation company. If they keep to high standards they usually can't compete fairly with those who don't. Then it all gets right back down to word of mouth and reputation. And that leads us right back to where we are right now.

So now ..... as you can see, I don't think that inspections in this trade will serve any purpose other than to create another non productive, useless, for show only, adding expense to jobs, by people who are not responsible for the things that they miss or who don't know enough about what they are "inspecting" .... or are just to damn lazy to explain things to you .... so as to help you out But .... for the right people, they can make rightly questionalble things ..... " disappear".

Trade Inspections work sometimes but .... in my opinion, not often enough to make it worth having to deal with the people who will eventually turn their jobs into a "rule over a dominion" bureaucracy run by the enforcement of rules depending upon "if they like you .... or not" And again .... THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE THINGS THAT THEY MISS!

This sort of proves my point(s)

But you weren't fired for failing to do your job. Truck wrecking is an accident, not intentional dereliction of duty.

I agree about the ahj inspections. Up my way, several years ago, all the inspectors except the electrical inspector were fired for doing "drive by" inspections where they often didn't even get out of their vehicles (in their defense, this IS northern Michigan and it gets COLD up here).

State inspectors had to be called for quite some time and it REALLY slowed down construction as it would often take a week or more from the time you called to get an inspector on site.

But, I was speaking in terms of an NFPA-72 type alarm inspection. Having that performed by an alarm company that didn't install the system and doesn't service it - the only thing they would be beholding to is an honest inspection.

What about when you "red tag" a fire alarm and send the required paperwork to the AHJ? Even made a follow up phone call to make certain the letter was received by the AHJ? Wait, it has been 5 years and the place is still in business and the fire alarm panel still has that same red tag right on the front of it. That good old boys club has lots of members besides just the installers and maintainers of fire alarm systems. Even better; I was at a meeting of a fire alarm association held in a city owned building. The building's fire system had a red tag on the fire alarm panel. I personally took the Fire Marshall over to the panel and asked him why it has had a red tag on it for nearly a year. He craw fished and acted as if were my faux pas for pointing it out. He said that only installers can remove the red tag and it should be done by the next inspection period. It is a year later and the tag is still there. If things are this bad with regulations, how bad could it get without any?

Some time ago, for a short while, I was all for having any/every alarm system inspected in the same manner as is required by the electrical and other building trades. HOWEVER, since that time and over many years, I've come to see that it's all talk and show and very little action. It seems to me that the so called "inspections" generally fall into a few categories.

1/ If you're new in the trade, the inspectors are real hard on you for quite a long time. It's sort of like an initiation into "the club" so to speak. 2/ After you've been around for awhile, and the "inspectors" get to know you .... and your work style/ethic/standards, they don't do as thorough a job of "inspecting". 3/ After you've invited them out to lunch or dinner a few times, the inspection amounts to the "inspector" getting out of his car, standing in the driveway, looking at the building being worked on, filling out a check list and then driving away. 4/ Once you've given them holiday gifts, bottles of wine or booze, game tickets, a weekend in the Pocono's, you can then ask them to ignore certain things on jobs that otherwise wouldn't pass "inspection"

In the meantime, the installations of the company get sloppyer and sloppyer since now one now has to meet any standards. Ultimately it all depends on the standards of the owners or managers of the installation company. If they keep to high standards they usually can't compete fairly with those who don't. Then it all gets right back down to word of mouth and reputation. And that leads us right back to where we are right now.

So now ..... as you can see, I don't think that inspections in this trade will serve any purpose other than to create another non productive, useless, for show only, adding expense to jobs, by people who are not responsible for the things that they miss or who don't know enough about what they are "inspecting" .... or are just to damn lazy to explain things to you .... so as to help you out But .... for the right people, they can make rightly questionalble things ..... " disappear".

Trade Inspections work sometimes but .... in my opinion, not often enough to make it worth having to deal with the people who will eventually turn their jobs into a "rule over a dominion" bureaucracy run by the enforcement of rules depending upon "if they like you .... or not" And again .... THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE THINGS THAT THEY MISS!

This sort of proves my point(s)

But you weren't fired for failing to do your job. Truck wrecking is an accident, not intentional dereliction of duty.

You have to fix the system and remove the tag yourself, sending in paperwork is not going to solve the issue that caused you to tag it.

HTH ;-)

As I say .... with or without inspections .... even by di-associated companys, it all gets down to who's honest and who is going to do the right thing ...... or .... not. Government or bureaucratic inspections only adds false authorization to those who would break the rules anyway, with or without inspections. And since they're not responsible for the things that the "miss" what do they have to lose? Those installers that do a good job to begin with ...... don't need to be approved by someone bureaucrat on the take, who would approve a non conforming installation to begin with. Without any responsibility for the inspections that they perform, there's nothing to compel them to be honest. In fact, it's actually condusive to not having to be honest.