I'm starting to understand this stuff now. I am having a house built now, and it comes with a security system. The controller is a DSC model (not sure exactly which one), and I am pretty sure that there will be some other "black box" in a closet somewhere--not really sure what it does (I've seen them in other people's houses--what DO they do??). So, if I go out and buy, say, an Elk M1, will I be able to control my security system with it? Would it just replace the controllers, or would I have some work to do in the black box as well?
Depends on what the black box is (unless you mean the black box is the security system and you're referring to the keypad as the security system, which it isn't - it's just a remote keypad).
But, if you bought an ELK M1, it would completely replace your existing security system. You'd have to replace the keypad, too. But, you could probably keep all of your sensors (but you'd probably want to make some changes once you compare what the ELK can do with your basic home security system).
Couple things you should know. The Elk M1 Gold is not UL listed. The DSC system you're presently using is. This may or may not be of concern to you, but if it is, I'd suggest waiting on upgrading until Elk is finally able to win its approval. OTOH, if you like the idea of being able to control everything in your house, enjoy the benefits of having a pretty powerful security panel "in one package", and aren't particularly "price conscience", then, by all means go for it.
"None" explained things pretty good. The "black box" you're referring to is the common control. These are usually only compatible with certain types of keypads. Changing the common control to a different manufacturers will involve changing out the keypads as well. If all the wiring's been run and is terminated to the present control, it's only a matter of jotting down and labeling each wire (zone 1, 2, 3, etc.) along with the "zone descriptors" before undertaking to upgrade your system. The Elk is really easy to program with the software package they sell and interconnection to your computer is a snap. You might want to brush up on some alarm terminology. There are some helpful links to do this here:
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When you're ready to purchase your equipment you may wish to explore the websites of some of the dealers listed here:
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There are a number of additional resources:
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If you have any specific questions or problems, feel free to email me.
Well if it were me building a new home, I would be the one deciding on what security system is installed not the builder. It is your money they are spending and your time and efforts to force it into a home automation system. Why pay for something that might not be able to do what you want and then have to pull it all out and pay again for getting what you needed in the first place. Then again, if you don't care about throwing money away, it doesn't make a difference.
Myself, I prefer the HAI Omni Pro system. UL rated, interfaces to HAL2000 and Homeseer as well as others. Also included support for thermostats, temp and humitity sensors, X10 support, fire/smoke detectors, motion detectors, and many other nice features.
I use it at my home and have never been sorry for getting it.
The ELK M1Gold is a security system as well as a home automation controller. It does a great job as an alarm. It is also capable of reading and operating all sorts of HA related devices.
Elk supports numerous lighting protocols, including UPB, Z-Wave, ALC, Centralite, etc., so you won't likely wind up with an obsolete system when the protocol war is over.
It currently supports HAI, Aprilaire and RCS communicating thermostats, but it will also support Z-Wave enabled stats when they become available.
One of the things I like about dealing with ELK Products is they are extremely responsive to dealer requests. If several dealers ask them to add a feature ELK will do it and include it in the next firmware release.
Speaking of firmware releases (ie, upgrades), ELK makes these available via free download directly from their website. Almost every other manufacturer, including HAI, charges a fee for replacement chips. Need a new lighting protocol added? Elk will add it to the lighting control interface or, if you're so inclined, you can develop your own and implement it directly on the ELK.
Most manufacturers, including HAI, charge a hefty fee for the software which you need to configure and diagnose the system. Elk includes it free with the controller if you DIY. Upgrades are free via their website.
HAI and Elk both offer Internet connectivity. HAI charges a significant fee for their software (not the same as the configuration software). With Elk it's included.
HAI, like most HA controllers, can read each zone (sensor circuit) status as "open" or "shorted". Elk does the same but Elk also does analog. It can read and compare different temperature, humidity and pressure sensors and make decisions based on complex logical comparisons.
I've also been looking at the Elk M1-Gold, but what can you do with the internet connection? Can it send an e-mail upon an alarm? Will it allow remote administration?? I'm using several DSC 864's now, and they work great, but I'd like to get away from the dial tone connection to my pager and go to e-mail. Bob
I am currently looking at the ELK M1 system, but it appears from their website that they charge for the remote programming software. What software for programming and trouble shooting are you referring to?
When you receive the unit write down the serial number. That will get you entry to the protected part of the website where you can download the current version of the software, along with version upgrades as they are released. There's also a user forum where you can get answers to questions.
If you need help, give me a call at 941-866-1100. I'm usually around on weekdays from 10:00 am eastern until whenever the phone stops ringing. :^)
I agree that a dedicated box like ELK is often going to be more reliable than a PC / software based solution. I have not worked with HAL though. There are several other folks participating in CHA who have extensive knowledge of HAL. They would be better able to answer questions related to the product.
There definitely is some overlap though. ELK can do a fairly thorough job controlling HVAC, lighting, irrigation and so forth. CQC is another HA app worth considering. The author, Dean Roddey, is a regular in CHA. I get the impression he's a straight up guy.
Homeseer has been going through some growing pains lately but it's still worth serious consideration. The HS folks don't participate in USENET anymore due to the vitriol you've probably noticed from time to time but they are a decent outfit.
going this route (ELK). Unfortunately, I am kinda stuck with installing the security system that the builder chooses. I don't mind ripping it out and replacing it with a system of my own. I do have a few questions still:
The system that he is installing comes with a year of free monitoring. If I install a different system, will I still be a ble to use the free (and paid for) monitoring? (Not really a show stopper--I'm just curious.) I assume that all the security system does is call a pre-programmed number, so the guy at the other end probably doesn't care what system on my end made the call. Or does the system pass some kind of data to the monitoring service that my new system would have to understand. Do I need more information about the system that the builder is installing for you to answer these questions?
The sensor switches at the doors and windows--I assume that these are probably nothing more than simple normally open or normally closed swtiches, right? I envision that some security systems are designed with NO switches and some are desigend with NC switches. I do not know what my system will use. Is the ELK smart enough to use either type? I'd really like to use the installed switches. I see this as a definite go/no-go for me. If I can't use the installed switches, then I really won't be able to do this.
Obviuosly, the switches all terminate at the actual security system ("black box" from my OP). From there, there must be some type of wiring that connects the system to the remote keypads. How is that typically done. Most likely, where the builder is putting his keypads, will want to put my own keypad/touchpad. What are the chances that I will be able to use his wiring for this? What should I ask to builder to put in the area of the keypads? RG6? CAT5? 120 VAC? Same goes for the area where the security system panel is mounted.
Last question. I would also like to install a camera or two. Perhaps one at the front door. What type of camera and wiring will best work? RG6? CAT5? Will I need power there too? What is the best way to use and implement a front door camera? I'd love to be able to push a button on a remote control for any tv or open a window on any computer in the house or see on the touch screens and see who is at the door.
As I mentioned already in this thread, the panel has yet to be UL Listed. You may wish to wait.
The builder has obviously "struck a deal" with an alarm company. There's probably a serious "markup" on the equipment. I would suggest a more subtle approach. Ask him how much the equipment and free monitoring is worth, then tell him your needs are above and beyond the capability of the equipment being provided and that you'll "complete" that part of the contract for yourself. Be prepared to "give a little" back. You have to remember that he's marked up the installation and may wish to retain that profit.
Probably. It depends on how flexible the terms of the agreement are.
It would be helpful, yes. Be careful about any contract you may be required to sign. It could be a three year term with the first year taken care of by the builder. In this instance, you have the option of not accepting they system (unless, of course, you've already signed the contract). You can't be "forced" into signing any sort of binding agreement. Make sure you read the "fine print"!
I can pretty well guarantee that the switches are NO. That means that with the door/window closed, the contact is closed. The M1 can be programmed to handle "end-of-line" zones (usually associated with NC reed switches that are "open" when the door/window's closed) or non-end-of-line zones.
There won't be a problem. I always run two 22/4's to each keypad, but the installing company may only run one in this instance.
You could ask him to run two 22/4's to each keypad. You won't need anything else.
You're going to need access to unswitched/unburdened 120VAC for panel power. If you're considering using the same closet he's mounting the control unit in as a HA termination cabinet, you may want to lay out a few runs of CAT6/CAT5/RG6 to each room for sound/network/TV, etc. Several individuals in this Group can make suggestions in this regard. You may also want to consider wiring runs for cameras.
CAT5/RG59U/18-2LVT for each camera location. This gives you the ability to choose any camera system out there.
Home run everything to a central closet. Put a couple of runs of CAT5/CAT6/RG6 to each room and you'll have that ability as your budget allows. BruceR has the best home made solution wiring closet I've ever seen. I'm modelling mine after his. :-)
Feel free to email me if you need more info on the M1. Good luck!!
Let the builder do the pre-wire. Do NOT sign a multi-year contract with the alarm company. Most of those deals are awful for the consumer.
That's between you and the alarm company. If they are willing to monitor what you install, fine. Again though, do NOT sign a multi-year contract. Annual agreements are fine but you want the freedom to walk away without paying for years of unused service in case they turn out not to be a good provider.
Some alarm companies refuse to monitor the system unless they can lock you out of programming. If there's even a hint of that, look elsewhere for service. The problem with that is many of those same companies will actually refuse to unlock the panel when you stop using their service unless you pay a fat fee. This is a frequent complaint I hear from folks who are trying to change alarm monitoring companies or quit monitoring entirely. Make certain that you and you alone will retain access to programming.
Alarm monitoring services use devices called alarm receivers to answer incoming calls from clients' control panels. The receiver will be able to understand one or more message protocols. Most alarm receivers in use today can handle multiple protocols from different types of alarms and HA controllers. The ELK M1 system can be programmed to speak most of the major protocols. Thus almost any monitoring company will be able to work with the ELK system.
Note that some monitoring companies are unwilling to contract directly with an end user. If you need it be happy to help you find a service provider. There are numerous small, independent firms and several national ones that work with DIY systems.
Not really. Unless the alarm provider is one of the very few that only work with one brand, they should be capable of processing signals from ELK or any other major name controller.
Correct. Most burglar alarm sensors use a normally (non-alarm state) closed circuit that opens when the door or window opens. The circuit can be "supervised" by installing an EOLR (end of line resistor) in series with the sensor though many installers don't even bother putting these in place. Doing so is simple and takes only a minute. The EOL resistor helps to detect an a short circuit which might otherwise prevent the system from detecting an alarm.
Most burglary sensors are closed when the door is closed and open when the door opens. The ELK M1 system, like most others on the market, can be programmed to function with either type.
BTW, smoke detectors are open circuit, closing on alarm. These are always supervised with an EOL resistor which is placed across a spare pair of terminals at the last detector on a circuit. Unlike burglary sensors, smoke and heat detectors are wired in parallel, like the rungs on a ladder. While all is normal a small trickle current flows through the resistor at the end. If any detector senses smoke it shorts, triggering the alarm.
That shouldn't be a problem. In the worst case scenario you might have to pull the out of the wall (they're usually shoved into the holes without any cement) to replace the EOL resistors if the panel uses different ones from the ELK system. If you can find out which system the builder's guy uses I'll tell you which resistor it uses and whether that will be an issue. However, since many alarm installers either program the system to function without the resistors or install them inside the control panel (where they are useless), it probably won't be an issue at all.
Don't worry. Replacing switches is a piece of cake as long as the technician leaves a "service loop" of extra wire in the wall. Knowledgeable techs always do this because otherwise they will have a miserable time if they ever have to fix the system, say after a lightning hit.
Correct. Here's the zinger. You knew there had to be at least one, right? :) The best way to wire the ELK system is to use CAT5 wire for the keypads. Most other panels still use untwisted, 22/4 (22 gauge, 4-conductor) wire for the keypads. If your basement ceiling is to be closed in or if there is no basement, ask the alarm company to use CAT5 cable for the keypads. Offer them a free roll of the stuff in return. It's cheap (~$60 for 1,000 ft at Home Depot or less at most online retailers).
If you get them to use CAT5 for it, 100%. If not, you'll have to run your own wires afterward. Depending on how you prepare for this during construction and on the way the house is built, this can be anything from a breeze to a royal pain.
Most builders will install an extra run of conduit from the basement or utility room to the attic if you ask. With that in place you can easily drop new cables to any place on the floor below the attic. If there will be a basement and its ceiling will remain unfinished, it's a snap to add or replace keypad wiring on the first floor. With a drill, electrician's snake and a little patience, anyone with a modicum of tool skill can do this.
Install CAT5.
Besides wires from the sensors, the system will need a run of
4-conductor or CAT5 (either will work but CAT5 is more convenient) from the telephone company's "protector" (gray box on the side of the house). Also, run CAT5 from the control panel to wherever your PC or router will be. Because the ELK system can connect to the Internet, that CAT5 run will come in very handy later.
Also, install the ELK control panel or, for that matter, any alarm or HA control panel near the main electrical panel where it is convenient to connect it to the home's earth ground rod. This is essential for proper lightning protection. An unswitched,
110VAC outlet should be installed close to the panel. I like to install two separate "quad" outlets on the same plywood backboard where the HA control panel is mounted. These provide a convenient place for the system's plug-in transformer and for my power tools and a work light.
There are a plethora of CAT5 cameras on the market. These may very well obsolesce the older style cameras in 10 years. Most carry power and signal within the same CAT5 cable. OTOH, there are still many more conventional cameras around today. Wire is cheap and it takes very little extra time to pull both CAT5 and RG59 (RG6 is a complete waste for security cameras) plus 18/2 for camera power. As such, you may want to have the electrician pull all three at the same time.
Connect the cameras to a "modulator" (box that converts the camera signal to an in-house TV channel). The modulator will mix the camera signal with your incoming CATV or antenna wiring. Better quality monitors allow you to select a channel for each camera. Now, when you want to view the front door, simply change to that channel. The same thing can monitor the back yard, swimming pool, baby's room, etc.
"22/4" is standard four conductor 22AWG "quad" (also called Station "Z") wire. I believe CQC will need CAT5, I'm not sure. You'll have to ask the guy from CQC. At this stage it would be really inexpensive to put the extra wire in.
When I was doing residential installs in Edmonton, the company I was with pre-wired for "everything" (full perimeter system), at least four keypad locations (Master Bedroom, Hallway, Back Door and Front Door), smoke detectors, heat detectors in the garage, laundry and furnace rooms, and we installed special bars in the basement windows. These could be easily removed by simply lifting them out of their holders and chucking them aside. When you did that though, you also set off the alarm system (a switch was installed in either the top or bottom holder). The bars were sold by Micron Security Products (who also provided our custom security window screens). The guy that owned Micron at the time was an ex ADT sales guy. The bars were his idea and I believe he still retains the patent.
The "basic" system we sold included one keypad, five door contacts, all the windows that opened, two motion sensors, a smoke detector, a heat detector, and two window bars. The customer could then add devices to meet his budget or specific needs with "no pressure" from a sales person. We also added the first six months of monitoring for free as long as they signed a one year contract. This last bit didn't cost us anything as the monitoring company we were using charged us the same way (six months free). A lot of dealers took advantage of that, but we decided that customer retention was more important. Later on, when the Vista Series Panels were introduced (Ademco 4140XM), they had zone expanders that made wiring a big house even easier because we didn't have to "home run" everything. We'd pick a convenient closet on the second floor and "home run" all the second floor wiring to it. The same thing for the main floor and basement. We'd then run two 22-4's and two
18-2's between all the closets to tie everything together. Then we'd "pick" the best location for the common control and make sure there was a telephone drop to the protector at the side of the house and that the electrician was aware we needed 120VAC. Once siren run to the cold air return (or main floor closet) and another in the attic (usually pointing out the vent). A couple of "spares" at the hatch for a possible wireless receiver and that would pretty well round it out.
Actually, I'd prefer that an alarm company do the pre-wire. Builders rarely know anything about motion detector placement, glass breaks or provide proper perimeter security. They'll also always opt for the "cheap" route.
Actually, this very much depends on the company. If a reputable one was offering monitoring at say $15.00 a month (like we do) most clients would want the assurance that the price isn't going to increase. I don't have many balk at signing a three year agreement.
Most alarm companies will want to limit your access to installer level programming for very obvious reasons. My insurance provider would have "kittens" if he knew that a customer could (even accidentally) alter the system programming and prevent it dialling out in the event of an emergency.
I doubt that. This is my 23rd year in this business and I've only come across one "locked board" on a take-over. The installing company was no longer in business and there was no one available to "unlock" it. Encountering a "locked" board is a rarity these days (even though the option is there for the installer to use). I prefer a unique installer code, and give the customer the option of simply "defaulting" the board if he no longer wishes our service or having our station remove the proprietory information through downloading.
I don't hear many complaints from my customers. In fact, most are simply "struck dumb" by our awesome service. :-) (I also don't see any post complaints on any of the message boards I participate in.)
The important thing about companies like "NEXTALARM" (for instance) is that they're really not a "monitoring company", but an "independent dealer" that "reps" for a number of monitoring companies. Please ensure that any monitoring facility that processes your alarm systems signals is "UL", or "FM" listed.
I would recommend you explore some of the contacts available through GRI
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You can order them with built-in end of line resisitors which is actually the only type we install. If you order the ones with terminal screws, you don't have to worry about shoving 6 - 8 inches of "pigtail" back into the hole and it makes servicing so much easier. There are a number of online dealers you can purchase contacts through. You'll find a convenient list here:
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Four wire smokes on the other hand require a thing called a power supervision relay. If you're contemplating having smoke alarms wired to your security system, you're going to have to employ a UL listed panel.
Chances are the installing company won't be using EOL supervised loops. You won't have to worry about changing out switches in this case.
Please follow the manufacturer's installation instructions with respect to the wire they recommend using for keypads and ancillary devices. If your system is going to be using smoke alarms, you may even need to run
18AWG to the keypads (check with the local AHJ). Robert has frequently suggested using CAT5 for keypad runs, but there isn't a manufacturer out there that recommends it.
Once again, please ensure that the area you're mounting your panel is properly protected physically. I like to hide the control cabinet in the upstairs bedroom closet as any "perp" will have to go through several "layers" of protection to get to it. The other tip I have is to have your telephone protector moved inside your garage. Most phone companies balk at doing this, but leaving the box outside where anyone can simply break into it is just asking for trouble. If you explain your concern to the installer, they should accomadate you. If not, you can always move the box yourself (after they've left).
While I agree that the panel should be properly grounded, you can run a
14AWG stranded wire from any location in the house to the electrical ground. In Alberta (where I started in the business) we used to leave panels ungrounded for the simple reason that the panels would stand a better chance at surviving a nearby strike. As long as your telephone protector is properly grounded, you should be OK to run a single 14 AWG stranded wire to the nearest "safety ground" (the ground lug in the nearby receptacle for panel power).
In addition to the online dealers listed on the link I supplied above, you might also explore:
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Feel free to email me if you have any questions. feolson(at)yoursecuritysource(dot)com.
The gentleman is patently wrong about CAT5 wiring. I didn't see the entire post because I filter some individuals, but if that came from Frank Olson, be aware that he would try to argue with me over whether the sun is shining. :^)
We are discussing the ELK M1 series automation controllers. The following is quoted directly from page 7 of the manufacturer's instructions:
"NOTE: If you want to home run more than 2 cables, run 6 or 8 conductor cable so that the data lines A & B can have a return path to series connect back out to the next device. This is best done with a ELK-M1DBH Data Bus Hub which accepts CAT5 or CAT6 cable with RJ45 plugs. For more information see diagram in keypad instructions."
Further discussion of key bus wiring on page 8 follows:
"Keypad Mounting and Wiring ... ...CAT5 or CAT6 eight (8) conductor cable is recommended for all Data Bus cables. The extra wires provide data return paths. Splice the Black, Red, White, and Green wires from the removable wiring plug to the Data Bus cable. Plug the connector into the back of the keypad. Tuck wires neatly into back plate and install Keypad on mounting plate. Each keypad has connections for an optional programmable output and a programmable zone input."
Please note that the ELK M1KP is not actually a "touch screen" but a keypad with an LCD display window. There are touch screens on the market which can be integrated with the ELK system. If these are of interest, check the following:
Crestron:
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Also, if you opt to integrate ELK with CQC software, I believe Charmed Quark has information on compatible touch screens.
ELK Products has a list of partner manufacturers whose products are designed to integrate with the ELK M1 Gold. ere's a link:
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