discussion groups?

With the advent of web message boards and forums, a lot of the traffic has gone off usenet (it's just too complicated for most people).

Probably one of the more active ones is

Many manufacturers now have their own forums (like which is widely used).

This group was dominated for years by discussion of X-10 problems. Now that most of X-10's deficiencies are well documented and available through Google, that traffic (or at least interest in responding to those questions) has dropped.

With the advent of other accessibly-priced lighting protocols, traffic for those protocols has migrated to their respective fora -- as it should.

Programming and interface issues have also moved to the respective hardware (Omni, Elk, Adicon etc) and software (Homeseer, Charmed Quark, Mr House etc.) discussion areas.

Between industrial automation (the realm of PLC's, SCADA, BACnet and so on) and proprietary high-end home automation and home theatre (Crestron, AMX etc) with custom programming, there's not much that can't be done that most folks *want* to do. Jist a matter of $ and time.

Some folks will of course continue to pontificate about things they have never actually used or touched -- Plus ça change, ...

Interest in homebrew hardware has with a exceptions continued its long decline parallel to that of DIY electronics and most traditional home act ivies (woodworking, sewing, music-making). There will always be a few folks prone to try to build a gizmo from copper pennies and beach sand, but we are a dying generation.

What this newsgroup *could* be good at is discussion of new directions and strategies. But much of the forward-looking, innovative discussion in newsgroups began moving away 'bout the time most government industry and academics left in the early 1990's.

What I lament is any semblance of innovation in the arena of self-directed/adaptive/smart/heuristic/AI-based/expert HA systems. Most everything one sees here is binary (event-driven) logic drifting towards push-button control of the push-buttons on AV doodads. Actual environmental measurement and monitoring in current conventional HA is simplistic/primitive and responses mechanistic/deterministic. There's much more to be done. My list of references of actual innovative 'intelligent' homes (*not* = houses with lotsa X-10 and video cameras) is outdated. Fresh URL's anyone ? Anything of actually of interest on the HA web ring? Academic efforts? Enviro experiments that worked?

Mis dos céntimos .. Marc

Marc_F_Hult

That's due to a number of factors. Dispersal comes to mind as the foremost. X-10.com hosts discussion groups. Most X-10 newbies get their answers there. That didn't exist when this newsgroup saw its heyday. X-10 newbies often got the "if you use X-10 your family will die" treatment by the anti X-10 contingency here. People get tired of arguing against that sort of stuff.

It happens in every newsgroup, though. People ask a question and instead of being offered help, or polite silence, they're told what a dumb choice they made. What a way to win friends and influence people. So the newsgroups have become sort of a bombed out Beirut of the '80's. Life goes on - barely.

Yes and no answer to "as it should." People in those fora should visit more often than they do because it's an opportunity to expose the HA community in general, which I believe CHA represents, to specific new technologies.

It's probably slowed their overall growth as a result. It's easy to see why, though. I've seen almost every vendor who's ever come here get vilified in a manner befitting Adolph Hitler. So they've had to set up their own fora to avoid public extortion spectacles and worse. Here's where the war mentality settles in deeper as people break off into separate camps. "It's them or us!" becomes the nature of interactions between them.

Eventually there will be unification and all devices will be able to speak to and interact with other devices, be they TV, toaster or telephone. That's what I think all CHA'ers strive for. Simple and reliable remote control of everything that's remotely controllable.

And some folks will never bury their respective hatchets. That's just Usenet, which is really an incredible social experiment on an unprecedented scale. We're all a part of something that will likely be preserved for a long, long time. We all should be on our best behavior but we never are.

As you note, it's always a good idea to ask proper questions such as "did you really use one?" and "do you work for the company you're touting?" among others when seeking advice.

There was a reason for the guild system. So much of one that I think it will return in some shape or form. Every kid I know is taught that plumbing is dirty menial work and that you should strive to be a doctor, lawyer or astronaut. Is it any wonder we've got problems with finding skilled "builders?"

That's telling 'em -- what? That when the level of hostility ratcheted up all the nice, smart people left? That's my take on it, anyway. Unmoderated newsgroups allow savages to prevail. If someone can play harder, dirtier and longer and shout louder than anyone else, in an unmoderated world there's nothing much people can do except ignore them. History has shown that's almost impossible for *everyone* in a group to do, let alone the victim of the attack.

My take on the whole thing is that if *everyone* strives to tone down the rhetoric, perhaps some of the really smart people who used to post daily might offer their thoughts on the future. I know many of them are still reading because every now and then they'll make a comment.

environmental

That will change. We've already seen interest in predicting and integrating weather with home automation. Dr. Cheung's got some fascinating stuff at:

As soon as you see the picture you know what an innovative guy he is.

His system tracks 8 parameters: wind speed, wind direction, rain fall, outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp, inside humidity, and barometric pressure. He then derives three additional parameters, which are : wind gust (max winds over a period of time), the outside dew point, and the rain fall rate.

He's built his own weather nodes with LCD displays that use a fiber optic connection to the sensor pod on the roof. I'm going to try adopting this technology to my own house because up until now I was not keen on mounting wires and sensors on the roof because of lightning concerns. His anemometer and wind vane are made from commonly available items such as Schedule 40 PVC tubing.

What I like most is that he follows up on his own work. He noted that the rain fall sensor's sensitivity dropped a little. But the sensor was so high up, it presented a maintenance problem. When he eventually did recover the sensor pod dirt had accumulated and dried onto the rain sensing spoon. The added weight stopped it from tipping. He fixed the problem and detailed the steps it took. Finally, he made a small vent window in the side of the house so he could reach the sensor pod climbing on the trusses of the roof. (I am stealing THIS idea Dr. C!!) His followup notes are worth their weight in gold for anyone contemplating a similar installation.

Then go out and do it!! :-)

Update it! :-)

Dunno, but anyone with an interest in HA should check out Dr. Cheung's site - even if they have visited before, they'll see how HA technology actually evolves.

-- Bobby G.

Except for spelling. (-;

Sorry, I couldn't resist - it's a perfect setup.

I am having some lockups with my Robodog. I thought they contained either a TM751 or an RR501 and showed that pedigree in the FCC sticker. But I looked at the problem child and it's labelled B4SREX-10. Do you think it's a whole new device or a reworking of one of the earlier two - or perhaps the newer transceivers whose number escapes me at the moment.

That's just a misfire between brain and fingers. I have to type with one hand (with fingers that have less than normal sensation) but still touchtype after a fashion so sometimes siht happesn. I've noticed more and more misfires and elisions, of late.

The RF transmitter section of almost all X-10 RF devices is the same. I've seen a bit more variation in the receiver circuits but suspect most are still superregenerative designs which can be done with a minimum of components. However, with the CM15A, they went to third part daughter boards for both.

I'm really not familiar with the little doggie's features. Can you describe the symptoms?

Sith does happen, indeed. :=)

The problems seem very much like the endless DIM syndrome. The "dog" fills the powerline with signals that the ESM1 says are noise and the Monterey classifies as (cringe) BSC's. When it's happened, it's almost always involved a TM751 - but oddly enough not one set to the dog's housecode. It happened long before the XTB arrived, FWIW.

I haven't studied it as closely as I'd like to because it's usually my wife who's got that look on her face who reports that "the lights don't work" and the implication is that they had better start working soon!

So I give a quick peek at the ESM1 and that usually helps me zero in on the offender. Sometimes it's the dog clogging the powerline, sometimes it's a TM751, usually on the main housecode but not always. If I am in a hurry to fix it, and that's really been always, I make the circuit of the TM751's and press all their on/off buttons. When I find one that fails to respond, I unplug it, replug it and everything's OK until the next time. If all TM751's are OK, I unplug the dog and then the mystery signals are gone.

One interesting clue is that it NEVER happens to me alone in the house. I suspect we're activating motion sensors or sending commands at nearly the same time and something's getting locked in a broadcast storm, for reasons unknown. I have been unable to simulate the behavior, either. In explaining this I've decided to try one more test. I will take an UR24A and an EagleEye on the two different housecodes I use and sit with them together and press buttons simultaneously.

-- Bobby G.

[much sith clipped]

Apparently, there are several generations of Robodog. The latest responds to PLC commands as well as to RF codes. It's certainly possible that, if you have the latest whelp, it has collision avoidance and automatic retransmit (a la the RR501). That, along with a certain Leviton repeater can create chaos (although the Leviton and Worthington spokespersons who were burned at the stake here swear it's all X-10' fault).

With "endless dims" you will see valid Dim signals on the line. When the ESM1 reports "noise" and the Monterey fantasizes about bad start codes, the cause is usually PLC collisions or signals being corrupted by an ill-mannered repeater.

The TM751 has no way to determine what, if anything, is on the powerline so, if you have a mix of transceivers receiving the same RF, it can step on a transmission from other transmitters. If the transceivers are on different phases, certain housecodes will collide but this is usually a short-lived storm as the TM751 only transmits once. Any transceivers that automatically retransmit will use pseudo-random delays which should allow all of them to transmit in sequence. But, if there's also a Leviton HCA02-10E in the mix, chaos may ensue.

There has to be some sort of "stuck on" state going on here. For me to thoroughly analyze it, it's going to have to happen when my wife's on the way out the door so I can leave it in the 'stuck' state for long enough to do some analysis. I'm just afraid that will involve looking at the Monterey's output, cycle by cycle. Ugh!

automatically

There used to be one in the mix, and it bore the blame for this. What it might have been doing is simply repeating the garbage that Robomutt was spewing onto the powerline. There's no repeater. Not even any Boosterlincs anymore. There's just a state where doggie "barks" on the PLC in gibberish until he's reset. I paid an electrician friend to install the HCA02 then again to UNinstall it about a week later after living with some fairly constant issues. Maybe it was innocent when it was burned at the stake!

-- Bobby G.

I don't think there's anything to learn by looking at the Monterey output. If it is an endless dim event, you'll see a series of valid Dim signals. If it is an ongoing series of collisions, you'll see garbage and will not be able to draw any conclusions about the sources.

There is one other possible culprit. Unless something changed since I was helping Dan Boone sort out ADI's X-10 approach, the CPU-XA/Ocelot/Leopard, when a collision is detected, will automatically retransmit without limit. I wasn't able to convince Dan to limit this to some reasonable number of retries. This can be complicated by the fact that the TW523 power supply is inadequate and can corrupt the signals. (ACT also retransmits forever.)

Curious. Are you referring to alt.home.automation? Nobody that I can recall wrote what you say here.

Not sure what you are referring to. Often/usually folks are asking or implying a path/trajectory/options, and critiquing where they've been is part and parcel of responding fully and usefully in my opinion. Is there a hatchet here somewhere ?

Dunno what you are replying "no" to. In my opinion, X-10 should have been split off into a separate newsgroup, namely, comp.home.automation.x10. That way the net traffic is usefully organized ('usenet"). It would have resolved part of what you refer to as "dispersal". The much more pertinent reason for dispersal is because commercial interests sell more stuff that way and they are *forbidden* by the comp.* charter to sell stuff here. Read the charters.

I participated in one of the re-arrangements of the rec.photo newsgroups in the 90's that worked well. Folks who use primarily Nikon don't need discussion about Canon lens (similarly Omni-Elk; Homeseer-Charmed Quark; etc). So there were/are topical -- not hardware based -- newsgroups for general purpose discussion such as rec.photo.nature, rec.photo.largeformat, rec.photo.darkroom, and a buying and selling rec.photo.marketplace.* . eBay has removed most of the negative sales-related pressure on rec.photo.*. Conscientious self-policing continues to do is job in time-honored usenet tradition.

Newsgroup maintenance and growth is lottsa work, but it had significant benefits and added years to the longevity/survivability of rec.photo.* Of course it _also_ required sticking to the letter of the usenet charter with limited availability for commercial purposes. Sales folks have alt.home.automation to post to. 'Nuff said bout *that* ;-)

... Marc Marc_F_Hult

Expansion of the comp.home.automation would take principled leadership with time and a thick skin.

I nominate Bobby Green.

Marc Marc_F_Hult