Regarding that proposed ATT takeover of TM [telecom]

With the disclosure that I'm both a TM customer and also a shareholder.

Seems to me this is a major anti trust issue, one that's big enough that we just might, even under the current "see nothing wrong" gov't agencies, get some action.

I've just communicated to my various Washington critters that this would, if approved, lead to just three major national cellular carriers.

But it's worse than that.

First, the two others are flirting with their own merger, which would lead to just two cellular companies.

And second, one (ATT/TM) is GSM, the other (Sprint/VZ) is CDMA.

Claiming that this would still be a competitive marketplace is analogous to having one national supplier of gasoline and another for diesel fuel. Sure, they're both liquids used for highway traffic. But to switch from one to the other (even accepting that a duopoly is at all competitive) sure isn't practical.

_____________________________________________________ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key snipped-for-privacy@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

***** Moderator's Note *****

I thought that Sprint used PCS, not CDMA. Is that correct? Also, I was under the impression that T-Mobile's GSM used a different frequency band than does AT&T's GSM.

In any case, I feel that the technical differences are not a factor: no matter which handset a former T-Mobile user has, it's the ability to set rates for calls that counts.

Bill Horne Moderator

Both Verizon and Sprint have said they are not interested in merging. I retired from Verizon (GTE) and have done a lot of work for Sprint, the companies are not a like in anyway. Sprint and the old GTE were much more like each other. I did some work for Verizon in offices that I had once worked in as an employee and I can't believe it was every the way I remember, it is like a Bell Company.

- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2011 I Kill Spammers, Inc. A Rot in Hell Co.

That is not correct. PCS is a frequency band; CDMA is a radio technology that works on any band of the requisite capacity. CDMA phones have long been capable of operating on all currently-licensed frequency bands, because all of the major carriers' networks are cobbled together from licenses on different bands. There was a time when a cellular carrier was not permitted to own PCS licenses, but that went by the wayside long ago. (Most of Verizon Wireless started out as "B"-side cellular licenses.[1]) To add to the confusion, Nextel used Motorola iDEN, a GSM-based technology that operates in spectrum licensed for two-way land-mobile radio; I don't know what Sprint has done with this platform since acquiring Nextel. (Most of Sprint started out as PCS licenses; the old rule was still in place when Sprint merged with United and Centel; the old United and Centel "B"-side cellular properties were spun off as 360 Communications, which appears to have vanished entirely.)

US Cellular and MetroPCS also run CDMA networks.

T-Mobile USA was formed through the roll-up of several GSM providers who were all operating in the PCS band.

Actually, that's pretty irrelevant these days. It's the ability to set rates for data, and to demand bribes from content providers for access to those customers, that counts.

-GAWollman

[1] Verizon Wireless inherited the old Bell Atlantic-NYNEX Mobile licenses, which were all "B"-side cellular, the old GTE licenses (again, as the incumbent wireline carrier, these were "B"-side cellular), the old Alltel licenses ("B"-side), and the Vodafone AirTouch's licenses (which were "B"-side cellular licenses sold off by Pacific*Telesis and U S WEST). VZW inherited PCS licenses from PrimeCo, former joint venture between Bell Atlantic and AirTouch. AT&T has the old McCaw "A"-side licenses in those territories, plus the old BellSouth Mobility "B"-side licenses in the south, plus various PCS licenses they've picked up along the way, plus Qualcomm's nationwide UHF channel 55 license and channel 56 in some markets (ex-MediaFLO).

T-Mobile's different frequency band is only for its 3G data features.

It uses the same frequency bands as AT&T for its voice and Edge (ie. 2G) Data Features.

You can mix-and-match AT&T and T-Mobile phones, although if you want

3G data speeds, then you need to use the correct hardware on the correct network. Ie. I swapped my SIM regularly between the phone AT&T issued, and the phone T-Mobile issued.

One of the notches on my belt was being the Project Manager for the first Sprint PCS network to go live, Fresno, California. At least on the west coast all of the initial Sprint installations were 1900 mHz CDMA; later on they started roaming on other networks. Somewhere in a box I still have the prototype Qualcomm handset that I used while we were checking the Sprint billing system before we could put paying customers on it.

Marty

***** Moderator's Note *****

OK, I'm very confused now. I thought PCS systems could not inter-operate with others: i.e., that the Sprint network's customers _always_ had to get a new handset to switch to Verizon Mobile or AT&T.

Let's just get that much clear, and I'll try to keep up. ;-)

Bill Horne Moderator

Sprint uses CDMA, it is just called PCS by them, I have Sprint service and have installed switches for Sprint and Verizon, both are the same.

+--------------- | >***** Moderator's Note ***** | >I thought that Sprint used PCS, not CDMA. Is that correct? Also, I | >was under the impression that T-Mobile's GSM used a different | >frequency band than does AT&T's GSM. | | T-Mobile's different frequency band is only for its 3G data features. | | It uses the same frequency bands as AT&T for its voice and Edge | (ie. 2G) Data Features. | | You can mix-and-match AT&T and T-Mobile phones, although if you want | 3G data speeds, then you need to use the correct hardware on the | correct network. Ie. I swapped my SIM regularly between the phone AT&T | issued, and the phone T-Mobile issued. +---------------

Also, a generation of phones are hitting the market that are compatible with both data bands, e.g.:

T-Mobile G2X Equipped With AT&T's 4G Bands by Rob Jackson on March 23rd, 2011 at 1:07 am

Either T-Mobile is already requesting manufacturers produce their phones to future-proof them for the AT&T acquisition or LG realizes the benefits of economies of scale. While I'd predict the latter, either way it seems the latest hot handset from T-Mobile will be equipped not only with T-Mobile 4G but also with AT&T 4G. ...

And while this doesn't say it does both, it's implied:

LG Optimus 3D Passes FCC with T-Mobile 3G Bands by Kevin Krause on March 23rd, 2011 at 7:46 am

-Rob

+--------------------------------------------------------------+ Rob Warnock 627 26th Avenue San Mateo, CA 94403

I believe they are just registered to use the network you subscribe to. I get up to the foothills north of Sacramento and I believe I'm roaming on Verizon and I have Sprint, so they must have Roaming agreements. GSM phone have all of the data as to where your service is located on the chip. My knowledge is in the switch with some tower work changing out batterues.

Not so, at least at the hardware level. Since there's no such thing as a SIM card for CDMA, phones are delivered by the manufacturer locked to the carrier that is selling them, but Verizon's, at least, all have multi-band radios and all it would take is a PRL update for VZW phones to use the Sprint network. (But Sprint probably doesn't own spectrum in any place that would be advantageous for VZW to acquire, which would explain why no merger has been proposed between those two companies.) I would not be surprised if Sprint's phones were also multi-band, as that would make it cheaper for the manufacturer. I don't know what US Cellular's and metroPCS's spectrum footprints look like (and thus how much they're reselling from Sprint or Verizon), but those companies' phones are even more likely to support both cellular and PCS bands.

And of course everyone in the US is deploying the same 4G technology, LTE, which is a GSM standard and will require some sort of SIM (although possibly not customer-replaceable). Each carrier will be doing it on a different chunk of spectrum.

-GAWollman

Yes and no. You can't sign up for Sprint service and use a VZ handset, but they could enable roaming between networks to fill in the gaps.

R's, John

First of all let's get a little technical stuff out of the way. In the US mobile operators use for voice for their 2G networks either the GSM standard or the CDMA standard. They operate on either the "cellular" frequency band which formerly people said was on 800 Mhz but which is closer to 850 Mhz. The other band used for 2G mobile is PCS at 1900 Mhz. Both CDMA and GSM operate at these frequencies. Verizon Wireless uses both 850 and 1900 Mhz frequencies depending on what they are allowed to use wherever they are. Verizon does not use cellular in some markets and only uses PCS. Sprint started with PCS which is why the company before merging with Nextel was known as Sprint PCS. When they acquired Nextel and its 800 Mhz SMR (Specialized Mobile Radio) service the company simply used the name Sprint. From what I recall reading Sprint was asked to vacate the SMR service at 800 Mhz because of interference with emergency service radio.

Technically Verizon and Sprint's service is compatible since they both use a form of 2G CDMA. The incompatibility likely is in adopting 4G service since Verizon Wireless is going for LTE and I believe Sprint is going with Wimax.

I talked to Sprint Support and was told that they have roaming agreements with several carriers, but would not be specific, but he did say that they don't have a lot of towers in the area I have been in, but Verizon does, yet my data on my Sprint Overdrive works just fine and from what I can tell my going to my Overdrive page, it is on the Sprint

3G Network and a couple of times I hit 4g, I think it was Clear.