Why I Don't Do Service for Other Companies

Stay away from any Pro Alert systems too - somehow I had gotten roped into servicing 900 accounts down in Tucson. Horrible experience...I was off the hook legally but believe me when I say these were crapola, and in many cases fraudulent installations that NEVER worked.

Servicing for other companies can be a horror show, and I won't do it except in rare instances where I know the rep. of the company and I'm provided with complete documentation and printout of the history, etc.

I made alot of money in the past on situations just like that. I usually called in the office on site, explained the whole situation...then I document everything and bill them for everything. I have even taken pictures to email them in to the head office.

Sometimes I even have to reinstall the system from scratch. So that $99 lick and stick system cost them $400+ in labor to service. Most just pay it and end up calling me back to fix other nightmare installations. Hey, I ain't cheap, but you don't ever have to worry about that customer ever again.

Jim Rojas

I have been payed to clean up several bad commercail burg and fire installs and found most companys were happy to pay the cost to keep the customer happy. Those companys who are not willing to work with me its goodbye and do not call me back. Shame there are so many companys out there that all they are intrested in is getting the monthly monitoring and nothing else. I have seen dealers out my way switch from ADT , to Monitronics or what ever other dealer program is available after they cant meet the current programs requiremnts and keep enough account retention and seem to never get the message it the customer that matters stupid. Take care of the customer and you do not need to do automatic renewals and every other nonsense trick to retain accounts. but some dealers never learn as do the gullible people who buy from them.

Both the DSC PC1555 (discontinued a few years ago) and the PC1555MX [a.k.a. Power 632] (now replaced by the Power 1616) have an event buffer. It would be a simple matter to see what the problem was and when it happened by uploading it. Company X could have done that without sending a technician to the job. As far as the installation part goes the only thing you can put in return air ducts, when its otherwise legal, is plenum wire. Certainly not a control panel or even a siren speaker. I can't begin to guess how many code violations that system you describe would add up to. And the installation of a single smoke detector? When is that ever okay? Substituting an Ademco Lynx for a DSC? A Lynx system (kit) is more expensive than a DSC (kit) so she got shortchanged there. That falls under deceptive trade practices I believe. Doesn't your state have burglar and fire alarm licensing requirements? Ours does. I'd turn them in, then go fishing. Alarm dealers like that ruin it for everyone.

I've done it on small homes where all the bedrooms are off a common hallway.

I don't know if I'd own up to that. You might want to read the NFPA book again but my memory says one in the bedroomroom and one adjacent [hall] (some exception for small apartments). On fire especially its all rule driven. Find the right occupancy rating etc. and go from there. There is a dB standard to meet of the head in the bed.

One in the bedroom only on new construction is what I've been led to believe.

See NFPA 72, section 11.5.1.1:

"Exception: Smoke alarms shall not be required in sleeping rooms in existing one and two family dwelling units."

- badenov

I know, but you know how companies tend to bend the rules. I do the work and someone comes behind to sticker it.

I'm not so sure about that.

I think I was trying to say no one really seemed to care then like they do now. Who had to worry much about an AHJ refusing to issue a CO? Sometimes back then the AHJ didn't know he was the AHJ. I am still surprised at small town versus big town code enforcement. The other day I went for an inspection and scheduled 2 men one day (plus the elevator guy) for 4 buildings on one campus with well over a hundred devices. We pulled one pull station and passed. They didn't know what an air handler shut down was, let alone the remote test buttons. In a big town it would have taken all day tripping every device, rechecking battery calculations etc.

Ok now ....... so the customer says ...... no, I mainly wanted a security system so I wouldn't get burglarized again and I can't even afford that. So, I can't afford to put smoke detectors in bedrooms, halls and on each level. So just for SOME protection, put one at the top of the stairs, in the hallway outside of the bedroom.

What do YOU say?

No, ..............it's either all or nothing at all ?

In aftermarket installations, does the customer have the final say, regardless of what is "recommended" ?

Is there REAAAALLY a mandatory code that says it MUST be done one way and it cannot be left up to the descretion of the homeowner?

I don't know if there are mandatory rules in your area, but I've never heard of that, when it comes to aftermarket residential installations. If it's a new home, or an addition ...then that is usually goverened by the regulations of the building department, not the Fire Marshal and not specifically NFPA or UL or ANSI or any other recommendations are necessarily followed. It's up to the AHJ. And the electrician is required to install the required smokes and CO detectors .... not an alarm company. I'm pretty sure it's common that in the aftermarket alarm installations, it's completely up to the homeowners descretion/pocketbook. YMMV

Perhaps I wasn't clear. NFPA 72 section 11.5.1.1 contains the requirements for smoke detection in one and two family dwelling units. It says (2002 edition):

11.5.1.1 Smoke Detection. Where required by applicable laws, codes, or standards for the specified occupancy, approved single- and multiple-station smoke alarms shall be installed as follows:

(1) In all sleeping rooms

Exception: Smoke alarms shall not be required in sleeping rooms in existing one and two-family dwelling units.

(2) Outside of each separate sleeping area, in the immediate vicinity of the sleeping rooms

(3) On each level of the dwelling unit, including basements.

Therefore, smoke detectors are not required inside bedrooms of existing one and two family homes, but are required for new construction.

As to your AHJ's requirement for plans, section 11.1.4 says: "The requirements of Chapter 4 through Chapter 9 shall not apply unless otherwise indicated." So, the documentation requirements of Chapter 4 do not apply to household fire alarm systems.

However, plans would be required if an electrician were installing smoke alarms, partially due to the voltage and partially to ensure proper placement and sufficient detectors. So I suppose it's not too much of a stretch to require some sort of plans for a household fire alarm system as well. The line voltage is not an issue, but detector placement is, as well as equipment listing. Lots of alarm companies use the burg siren as a notification device, and few of those sirens are UL listed. Plans might be a nuisance, but I can see your inspector's side of this as well.

- badenov

So then it follows ...... that (in my area), all newly built homes are required to have smoke detectors, inside and outside sleeping areas and on each level ...... always installed by the electrician. But, in newer homes where that requirement has been met, there is no requirement that an after market installation by an alarm company would have to meet and therefore one system smoke detector could be installed, if that's all the homeowner wanted.

In older homes that don't meet the newer requirements, there is no dictate saying that installing only one smoke detector is not allowed.

Yes, that's the way I read it: if there already is a system that complies with NFPA 72 by using 120 VAC smoke alarms, it's perfectly okay to use only one system smoke if that's all the owner wants. That also applies to older homes that have 120 VAC smoke alarms in the hallways, but not in the bedrooms.

This is mentioned in the appendix to NFPA 72, section A11.3.2, which says in part:

"Though a combination (of 120VAC smoke alarms and system smoke detectors) is allowed, one type of equipment must independently meet the requirements of the Code."

However, if a house has old battery-powered smokes, that is not a compliant system, and I would say you would have to install enough system smokes to meet current code requirements, not just one at the top of the stairs.

It does go on to say: "Similarly, if a monitored household fire alarm system is added to a house that has compliant multiple-station smoke alarms, monitored smoke detectors should be installed to replace the multiple-station alarms or be installed to provide the same required coverage."

However, the appendix is not part of the code, and besides, it says "should," not "shall." :-)

- badenov

Realistically something is better than nothing, in a legal liability world...ah..shit(?)

Generally in old work I will go by the old code here (within 15' of sleeping area) in addition to what Sparky has installed. But, on new construction we go whole hog.

| | | Ok now ....... so the customer says ...... no, I mainly wanted a | security system so I wouldn't get burglarized again and I can't even | afford that. So, I can't afford to put smoke detectors in bedrooms, | halls and on each level. So just for SOME protection, put one at the | top of the stairs, in the hallway outside of the bedroom. | | What do YOU say? | | No, ..............it's either all or nothing at all ? | | In aftermarket installations, does the customer have the final say, | regardless of what is "recommended" ? | | Is there REAAAALLY a mandatory code that says it MUST be done one way | and it cannot be left up to the descretion of the homeowner? | | I don't know if there are mandatory rules in your area, but I've never | heard of that, when it comes to aftermarket residential installations. | If it's a new home, or an addition ...then that is usually goverened by | the regulations of the building department, not the Fire Marshal and | not specifically NFPA or UL or ANSI or any other recommendations are | necessarily followed. It's up to the AHJ. And the electrician is | required to install the required smokes and CO detectors .... not an | alarm company. I'm pretty sure it's common that in the aftermarket | alarm installations, it's completely up to the homeowners | descretion/pocketbook. | YMMV |

Jim, I'm sure you know Huntington! 2 jobs there the "Building Inspector" told the customer that it was OK to waive the 120V interconnected by the Electrician as long as my System Smokes were audible (not saying how!) and it was monitored by a Central. OK- what happens when the customer defaults on payment, you cut him off- are we supposed to provide "free" monitoring to scum forever to comply with a Code Official Clearly out of his league? ( Same lovely fellow that told me that Class 2 plug in trannys were unacceptable if there was a Fire Zone on the system that was operational!) Help- I'm surrounded by @#$%%^^ Stupid People!

I know I KNOW! Occasionally I'll come across a homeowner building a new home and, for some reason, the electrician or AHJ will tell the home owner that it's ok for the alarm company to install the "required" smokes using system detectors. I always get the blank stare when I ask them, Well what happens if you cancel your alarm service or your alarm stops working and you don't get it fixed? Duuuuuhhh! At least with the 110V units, if one goes, they all don't go down and they'll beep until you disconnect it or fix it. And the plus side is, with the 110V units being ionozation and the system smokes, the homeowner has the best of both worlds. But then again, the electricians don't how HOW these things work ..... just that they've got this thingy that's got to go here and another one over there and the Monoxide thingy over there ......and lets' hurry up because it's 3:00 pm and almost quitting time.

I can't figure why the electrician ..... of all people ..... WOULDN'T want to make the huge profit they make on their $10.00 smoke detectors by telling the homeowner they should use the alarm company. I've even had a situation where the electrician didn't install the smokes because he "thought the alarm company was going to install them" When the home owner got my price versus the fact that the electrician had included them in the quoted price for the job.... but didn't install them ..... the electrician had to come back after the dry wall was up and install the smoke circuit.

One of my regrets, in this trade, is that when I had an opportunity to take training for an electrical license, I turned it down. It wasn't until I'd been in this business for a number of years that I realized what a great combination the two trades would be.

I probably wouldnt have fit in though. When it comes to low volatage and line voltage knowlege ....the words "smart" and "electrician" are not usually used in the same sentence. ................ :-))))))))))))))))))