Greater Toronto Area Recomendations?

Hi,

We are going through remodeling and have been wiring for an alarm system as we go. Now I need to get the connections made and panels installed.

I have 2 questions:

1) Anyone use Alarm Force? Does it work or is it all marketing hype? Three things I didn't like were: 1) is that they do all sales over the phone and don't send anyone out to see the house before they quote. 2) I understand it is all wireless so you have to see all the connections and 3) you activate and deactivate via your telephone and not a keypad.

The only reason I am using them is that after we got broken into a couple weeks ago (yea what timing) the officer who responded said they give higher priority to Alarm Force (he didn't mention names) since the chance of a false alarm is perceived as being far less.

2) Anyone recommend an installer in the Markham (actually closer to Stouffville) area for a traditional alarm?

Alan

Velco! sheesh.

| >> RHC | >>

| >>>The only reason I am using them is that after we got broken into a couple | >>>weeks ago (yea what timing) the officer who responded said they give | >>>higher priority to Alarm Force (he didn't mention names) since the chance | >>>of a false alarm is perceived as being far less. | >

| > We had an AlarmForce setup in our rented townhouse a few years ago - after | > a couple break-ins, we needed something but didn't have the budget to have | > an installation done, so their "free installation" offer was very | > appealing (this was some time before I got into security systems | > professionally). | >

| > A few thoughts: | >

| > The wireless idea is great - sensors are stuck to door or window frames | > with a Velcro pad (the installer who came out used a dab of silicone for | > good measure). The "brain" is a little box with speaker that plugs into a | > phone line and power outlet and can be placed anywhere inconspicuous. | >

| > I, personally, like the idea of using the phone for a keypad: you can | > potentially put a keypad wherever you can plug in a phone, or anywhere | > within the range of a cordless phone. It's not something I'd recommend | > for a standard alarm install, but there's nothing inherantly wrong with | > the idea. | >

| > I can also see the cop's point of view: with a standard monitored system, | > the alarm signals the monitoring center, who then calls back to verify the | > problem. If someone answers, great... but if not, how do you determine if | > it's a real alarm and the perp is just not answering the phone (although | > some, I'm sure, would be stupid enough to do so), or just another false? | > What if the perp has knocked a phone off the hook, and all the monitor | > gets is a busy signal? They have to dispatch the cops without knowing | > whether it's a false. | >

| > With the AlarmForce setup, the alarm immediately dials the monitoring | > center when it's triggered, and someone there can listen in, in real time. | > The perp can hear the voice demanding a response and threatening to call | > the cops - unless he's REALLY quiet, the monitor will hear him moving | > around and know there's something up. If the perp DOES respond, he has to | > provide a name (the customer provides a list of who's authorized to be in | > the place) and a password, or the cops are called. If all the monitor | > hears is the clock ticking in the background, he still has a better idea | > of whether or not to dispatch the police, than if all he had to go on was | > the phone ringing through. | >

| > Their basic "free" setup doesn't really require a survey of the location | > first: all it includes is the "brain" box, one door sensor, and one motion | > sensor. Additional sensors cost extra. No wiring needs to be run, and | > there's no keypad or separate siren to be mounted. It's a pretty simple | > install - our installer was there for all of an hour, including the | > paperwork. | >

| >

| >

| >

| > --- | > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. | > Virus Database (VPS): 0546-3, 11/16/2005 | > Tested on: 11/16/2005 7:09:45 PM | > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. | >

| >

| >

| >

| |

Gawd ! I don't disbelieve what you say, but what a sad reflection on the legitimate security industry....(choke gasp !! )

RHC

Sir, I hate to burst your bubble, but this concept is just another martketing version on the old "low down, megabucks a month" concept. The only difference is their promotion of the two way voice business, which sounds better than it is. They use wireless components strictly because it's easy and cheap to install, NOT because it is better. Coverage is absolutely minimal, and they make a big issue of this two way voice business, which is pure marketing hype. DSC sells the same ability with their PC 5904 two way listen in add on module, but you don't see most alarmcos rushing out to use it. Perhaps the reason is because it's simply no better than a conventional phone call. I agree that it sounds good though...it's called selling the sizzle not the steak ! The idea is not to catch the guy in the process; this rarely happens. It's to ensure that the home is secured properly after a real break in. Alarm Farce's promotion of this confrontational "listen in" ability is simply playing on consumers misunderstanding of the application of an alarm for their own marketing purposes!

It would also pay to remember this is the same company that made a big public radio campaign in Toronto telling the thieves in the process one way to compromise an alarm system. It's just my opinion of course, but knowing what I know of their installations, I wouldn't touch this company with a ten foot pole ! I've replaced dozens of their mickey mouse systems over the last few years. What kind of system, with training, can anyone legitimately install in an hour. To do everything properly, plus train properly, takes at least a full day, sometimes two !

Again, just my biased opinion, but they are as close to a scam as any company can get without actually crossing the line. Sad that a cop actually buys into that crap about fewer false alarms ! And even sadder still, is that a lot of consumers buy it as well......

RHC

"Recently, AlarmForce introduced AlarmPlus, the only system in Canada to utilize a patented two-way communication technology to address the concern of "telephone line cutting""

so what happens when the phone is cut coming into the home, that line that comes from the big pole on the street, yah know the one everyone and their ma knows is da phone line?? And if the phone is cut, how exactly do they accomplish 2 way communication??

"With 30 offices coast-to-coast, AlarmForce is always there to protect your home or business. Using our unique, patented technology, the dedicated members of the AlarmForce team respond to an alarm within seconds, ensuring that you are protected."

How do they get from where they are to the clients home within seconds, is Canada smaller than I have been led to believe?? How are they protecting you, are they sitting outside your home with a shot gun and a Flir headset?

We had an AlarmForce setup in our rented townhouse a few years ago - after a couple break-ins, we needed something but didn't have the budget to have an installation done, so their "free installation" offer was very appealing (this was some time before I got into security systems professionally).

A few thoughts:

The wireless idea is great - sensors are stuck to door or window frames with a Velcro pad (the installer who came out used a dab of silicone for good measure). The "brain" is a little box with speaker that plugs into a phone line and power outlet and can be placed anywhere inconspicuous.

I, personally, like the idea of using the phone for a keypad: you can potentially put a keypad wherever you can plug in a phone, or anywhere within the range of a cordless phone. It's not something I'd recommend for a standard alarm install, but there's nothing inherantly wrong with the idea.

I can also see the cop's point of view: with a standard monitored system, the alarm signals the monitoring center, who then calls back to verify the problem. If someone answers, great... but if not, how do you determine if it's a real alarm and the perp is just not answering the phone (although some, I'm sure, would be stupid enough to do so), or just another false? What if the perp has knocked a phone off the hook, and all the monitor gets is a busy signal? They have to dispatch the cops without knowing whether it's a false.

With the AlarmForce setup, the alarm immediately dials the monitoring center when it's triggered, and someone there can listen in, in real time. The perp can hear the voice demanding a response and threatening to call the cops - unless he's REALLY quiet, the monitor will hear him moving around and know there's something up. If the perp DOES respond, he has to provide a name (the customer provides a list of who's authorized to be in the place) and a password, or the cops are called. If all the monitor hears is the clock ticking in the background, he still has a better idea of whether or not to dispatch the police, than if all he had to go on was the phone ringing through.

Their basic "free" setup doesn't really require a survey of the location first: all it includes is the "brain" box, one door sensor, and one motion sensor. Additional sensors cost extra. No wiring needs to be run, and there's no keypad or separate siren to be mounted. It's a pretty simple install - our installer was there for all of an hour, including the paperwork.

I actually called Alarm Farce once. Here's what I found out. I have a

4000 sq. ft. house on three levels. They wanted to install one door contact (on the door we use most often to come and go), and one motion sensor. When I explained to the guy that the best place for the motion sensor would leave the whole back end of the house (family room, dining room and kitchen) exposed, he said: "We could always add a second motion sensor". When I told him we had a cat, he suggested we either "get rid of it" (not a bad idea since I can't stand the beast, but my son loves it so that's out), or the installer would set up the sensor to leave a space between it and the floor that would allow the critter to be able to freely move about. Now to the door sensor... since we mostly use the garage/laundry door to enter and leave, that would mean that all the other main floor doors are unprotected.

Line siezure?? What's that?? The system plugs into your kitchen outlet (that's where the rep suggested we place the control panel by the way). Keep in mind that the kitchen is at the back of the house and would be

*unprotected* with the single motion/contact "standard" installation. Alarm Farce has a "niche" and I believe it's better suited to the apartment dweller, where you have a single point of entry and can cover that with a motion detector as "backup". It still leaves the guy with 30 seconds to find the main control and disable it though (and that's pretty easy if they stay "true to form" and mount the sucker in the kitchen connected to the phone there with a duplex plug).

You do have to admire the amount of money they spend on radio advertising though. PT Barnum was right about the "sucker".

Alarm Farce *isn't* the only company that uses two way voice systems to verify an alarm. This technology isn't as "unique" as their ad states. Find yourself a reputable local dealer and ask him.

It's called "research". Go to the local library. Find the yellow pages for the last three years. Call three companies that have maintained quarter page ads (or less) in all of those directories. They're the ones that are liable to "stick" around.

Please *don't* fall for the hype Alarm Farce "sells" in their ads.

$25/month = "megabucks"?

I never said it was "better."

And how much does that module cost? How much is their similar monitoring service?

By cutting the phone line? Anyone who's watched a movie or cop show in the last 30 years has already figured that one out.

Really? How complicated does it NEED to be, to be legitimate?

Attach sensor to door and frame. Attach motion sensor to wall. Plug brain into power and phone. Enter your code to arm and disarm. Does it HAVE to be more complex than that?

I don't think your average consumer would want an alarm that takes a day-long course just to operate. The ones I've installed, most of the users have trouble grasping "zone bypass".

Well I'm sure you would have been happy to come install a panel, a couple sensors, and do all the wiring for a really low cost. Being in a rental at the time, we didn't really want to invest in a big installed system that we wouldn't even be able to take along when we moved.

For our situation, it was the best option. Even knowing what I know now, and having installed "standard" alarms myself, I know it would have been preferable TO US at the time. Sorry if that offends you, but one size does NOT fit all.

Before? As opposed to after?

Not many. We specialize more in CCTV, but do install the occaisional alarm.

I don't claim to be an expert. I only speak from my own experience. As I said, the AlarmForce system worked well for our situation.

RHC: It is when you are only leasing the equipment, and never own a thing, with never a chance that you can get reduced rates at some point in the future

RHC: The module is minimal in cost, and doesn't add anything to the cost of monitoring. Monitoring is whatever the local dealer chooses it to be....usually from $15 to $25 monthly

RHC: Yeah, well interestingly enough, most are too stupid to actually realize that. And most burglaries are crimes of opportunity where the young thief sees an opportunity and takes it. He doesn't plan that far ahead. In any case, you have to question the ethics of any company that would actually advertise in that fashion to suit their own ends. I'm told just after their ad campaign, there were a significant number of local robberies done after cutting the phone lines, something that was not happening to any degree beforehand.

RHC: It doesn't need nor should be complicated to use. But it does take time to install a professional system, hardwired OR wireless. One hour....that's a joke !

RHC: Yes, to do it properly !

RHC: True enough; however, legitimate systems are very easy to operate. Any one who can't grasp the fundamentals of alarm usage shouldn't likely have one. The day long time period is for proper installation, training, paperwork, passcards...all the things that Alarmforce don't seem to consider as important as your name on a long term contract.

RHC: Actually, rental situations are where wireless equipment makes sense. And that's what the "all in one" wireless systems were designed for. But the rule still applies in this business as in all others...you pay nothing, you get nothing !

RHC: It doesn't offend me. Consumers should have freedom of choice. I'm just suggesting, in most homes, in most cases, this is just about the worst alarm buying decision anyone could make. And you're right, one size doesn't fit all, something Alarmforce clearly doesn't want to understand..

RHC

So then you ARE NOT into alarm systems professionally, by your own admission.

ANY wireless system would have worked for your situation. You took the cheap way out and used AlarmFarce.

I'm no fan of all-in-one wireless systems, however there are many better systems on the market.

Julian

I checked my Atlas and it's only 14" from coast to coast! AlarmFarce should be able to reply in a jiffy!

Julian

And this also means if you EVER want to change alarm co, you have to abandon all the additional purchased equipment too, since nobody in their right mind would support it. Linear wireless, although improved over the years, has little support in the legitimate alarm business. At least as far as standard type alarm systems go anyway. I do use Linear wireless products, but never wireless motions or door/window transmitters.

AlarmFarce claims to be Canada's largest installer of two-way voice alarms. Gee, since they're the only one, AFAIK, doesn't THAT tell you something? If two-way voice was the great thing AF leads us to believe, then why aren't ALL police forces and alarm companies across Canada getting on the bandwagon? The answer is simple, MOST police officers and ALL LEGITIMATE alarm companies know that it's CRAP.

Reminds me of the Resident Advisor at UVIC some years ago. He was proud that he'd be 'in and out in 10 minutes' when he was with a woman.

One hour to install an alarm with testing, paperwork and demo is a joke, even if it is a basic system.

What a concept!

My Chinese Grandfather said there are three way you can get things, cheap, fast and good, but you can only have two at a time.

If it's cheap and fast, it's not good. If it's fast and good, it's not cheap. If it's good and cheap, it's not fast.

Julian