Auto locking door lock with remote

While I suspect you're affiliated with the manufacturer I do have some questions and you website doesn't give much info.

1. Does the RFID lock use rolling codes?
2. How close must the RFID keyfob be to operate the lock?
3. How close do I have to be to the keyfob to cl>I just purchsed a new mykey4000R that come's with a remote for my front

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:39:51 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote (with possible editing):

Exact duplicate of Dave's message! Same questions.

Passive tags have practical read distances ranging from about 10 cm (4 in.) (ISO 14443) up to a few meters ( EPC and ISO 18000-6) depending on the chosen radio frequency and antenna design/size. In our case it wont work unless youre really close. What I thnk he's worried about is if ur several feet away and someone steals the code out of the air when you're really far away.

L. M. Rappaport wrote:

No matter how weak the signal, it can be captured from great distances. It's all in the receiver and antenna. How do you think we receive signals from space probes that have even left the solar system?

I'm asking whether your underlying technolgy is secure (e.g. uses rolling codes).

There have been numerous demonstrations of RFID devices being easily cloned by merely passing by within close enough proximity to energize the RFID device. This has been done with electronic passports, implanted medical tags (i.e. Digital Angel) and things like the quick pass charge cards. Google on "RFID cloning".

From your n>Passive tags have practical read distances ranging from about 10 cm (4

1. Does the RFID lock use rolling codes? Yes it does if you really want to get technical. It is also set up with four billion rolling security code.
2. How close must the RFID keyfob be to operate the lock? About an inch away..
3. How close do I have to be to the keyfob to cl> No matter how weak the signal, it can be captured from great distances. It's

Of course we want to get technical. We want to know if your lock is secure.

Frankly, I do not believe your response. There is no need for "four billion" codes if you use rolling codes. When numbers of codes in the "billions" are quoted it usually means static codes which are absolutely insecure.

Then it has no advantage over things like an iButton which is definitely more secure since it is not subject to eavesdropping.

IOW, you haven't a clue. Some of the keyfobs "out there" can be cloned; others cannot. I doubt you understand the concept.

I think you should peddle your wares elsewhere where there may be fewer knowledgeable people to "get technical".

A few minor points:

Cloning the RFID key might be an issue but IME these things generally suffer from more mundane attacks. Inexpensive powered locks I've examined to date have been poorly constructed. Most could easily be compromised by application of force with any kind of lever.

As to the "4 billion" comment, he probably means there's a 32-bit code. That's not much in the way of security.

Lastly, I assumed from the first post that the gentleman was associated with the seller. That doesn't make him suspect but a statement to that affect would have been appreciated if it is so.

Regards, Robert L Bass

There's always "a few" isn't there? :-)

That's not saying much at all. Most "inexpensive locks" can "easily be compromised by application of force with any kind of lever".

Heck of a lot better than a "cheap lock" for which you can easily manufacture a "bump key" (I won't post the web address for the "how-to" video, but needless to say "it's definitely out there").

Yeah. He should at least have included a "by line" with his name, contact phone number and website address.

I agree it would be technically possible to train a big antenna on someone unlocking their door and read off the 40 bit code, or, slightly harder, to energise someone's key and read its response while its in their pocket. The question is, who would? No random burglar is going to do that, burglaries are mostly opportunistic. A black-hat RFID-trawler with a powerful antenna might scan crowds, but its exceedingly unlikely they'd know what they'd got, let alone be able to ID the holder of the keyfob and follow them home. Only someone quite technically competent and very determined to get into this particular house would be able to mount this attack successfully, and even then its likely that there are easier attack routes available, such as breaking through a window. This isn't a highly secure system, from what we've heard, but its probably as good as most physically-keyed locks. iButton is more secure than traditional keys but doesn't offer many benefits in terms of convenience. I would suggest some kind of active RFID solution with rolling codes or challenge-response might solve the evesdropping problem, and give the user a longer range to boot. I'll look forward to seeing that.

I could see it becoming some sort of suburban geek hack kind of crime. The professional burglar, if such a thing can be said to exist, is more likely to for much easier methods of entry. But a couple of teenage kids looking for kicks might well find it entertaining to do it. Not as entertaining as a few years in county lockup though...

My test for my home security is this: If it is harder to defeat than "rock through window," it is good enough for me.

"Electric door strikes can be forced easily," but not as easily as a rock through the window.

"RFID tags can be read easily," but not as easily as a rock through the window.

"A burglar could come in through the crawlspace and cut a whole in the floor with a battery-powered circular saw." ...

I just came up with that last one. :-P

Shit, as cheaply as some homes are made these days they could just use the saw on the walls themselves.

Something very similar happened to a client of mine. The perp crawled through a crawlspace vent and came up through the hatch inside the house. Unfortunately (for him), the dog's kennel was on top of the hatch. "Brutus" didn't like having his house moved unexpectedly. :-)

Agreed, so far.

Here we disagree. All of the inexpensive "automated" locks I've seen so far have actually been of significantly inferior build compared to "ordinary" locks. Even cheap Kwikset locks are often sturdier than these have been. The problem is it costs more to build a sturdy lock and most of the investment in these things, at least the ones targeting the residential DIY market, is in the electronics.

Even the electronic aspect of these locks often leaves a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, most of them can so easily be overcome that it's not worth the effort to mount a sophisticated attack.

Agreed. There are a number of well-built electronic locks on the market. The problem is most of them are priced out of the residential DIY market. While we occasionally get DIY orders for high end security equipment (one recent order included several Extreme CCTV cameras, covert IR illumintors, etc.) most people concentrate on electronic security and automation. Only a few take the sage advice of my friend, Bob Campbell, to make their homes physically secure as well as electronically protected.

BTW, Bob Campbell's website has some interesting information about physical and electronic security, as well as the foibles of the burglar alarm industry where he and I have made our living for many years. It's definitely worth a read at

Regards, Robert L Bass Bass Home Electronics