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Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/13/19 6:14 AM, nospam wrote:

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I understand. But unless your router has some way of notifying you that  
it has switched to the cellular stick, how are you going to know? If you  
don't know, and you like internet videos, you'll end up chewing through  
en entire month's data allotment in short order..

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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it's a rare event, so that doesn't matter. people who set it up *need*
the backup connection.  

however, they would definitely be aware of it because existing
connections would drop, overall speed will change and the router will
send a notification if configured to do so.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
wrote:

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When you change the route to the internet, you're public WAN IP
address will also change.  There are programs that monitor this IP
address and report any changes:
<https://www.gearboxcomputers.com/products/ip-watcher/
I use a similar script to monitor the route when using load balancing
routers.  

Or, you could use Google search to report public IP address:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=whats+my+ip

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I beg to differ.  About 25 years ago, I had a medical billing service
with about 75 desktops running on a single T1 (1.544Mbits/sec) line.
It worked because everything was text based with no graphics.  The
main router to the internet was setup to fall back to ISDN
(128Kbits/sec) if something died on the T1.  As I recall, the router
was in fallback mode for something like 6 weeks before anyone
complained about a speed problem.

I've had similar incidents since then, but with somewhat shorter
delays.  A few years ago, another customer sent me email asking me to
turn off the SNMP alarms that were coming from the main router because
it was flooding his mailbox with identical messages.  All the
identical messages were that the router was using the fallback route
to the internet.  My guess is it like that for about 5 days.  

I do better when someone is monitoring network traffic using a
graphing tool, such at MRTG or RRDtool.  
<https://www.google.com/search?q=mrtg+rrdtool+traffic+graph&tbm=isch
I don't ask users to analyze what's happening.  Just tell me that the
graphs have changed drastically, and I'll determine what has changed
and might be broken.  Notifications, alarms, and email messages are
useful for occasional failures.  However, they're useless for anything
that is repetitive.  See "Chicken Little" (the sky is falling) for how
it doesn't work.



--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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that was 25 years ago, in an era where few people used a lot of
bandwidth. there was no youtube, netflix or graphic intensive web
sites.

today, people will notice.

when 5g becomes prevalent (which will be a while), *it* will become the
main source of internet, with wired as a fallback, the opposite of how
it is now.

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in other words, it *did* notify users.

there's not much anyone can do if they ignore the messages.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/18/19 12:59 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

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And better latency (for 5G) too, something that can be more important.

--  
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he
him." [Jethro Tull, "Aqualung"]

Re: I need dual band recommendation
wrote:

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Really?  Latency is the round trip delay.  The speed of light is 5.4
microseconds per mile.  Right now 10 milliseconds is considered decent
performance for things like VoIP.  The customers most interested in
that technology are brokerage houses that do algorithmic trading,
where having a buy or sell order arrive a few microseconds before the
competition is worth many dollars.

For 10 msec, the maximum distance would be:
   10*10^-3 sec / 5.4*10-6 sec/mile = 1,850 miles round trip
or:
   1,850 / 2 = 925 miles one way.
However, data does not travel at the speed of light.  Propagation
delay in coax, fiber, RF vary, so I'll be arbitrary and use the
velocity factor of coax cable at 0.7.
  925 miles * 0.7 = 648 miles
There are also large delays in network boxes such as routers, bridges,
switches, NSA sniffers, web caches, etc.  I'll again be arbitrary and
give it another 0.7.
  648 miles * 0.7 = 454 miles.

So, if the 5G user really wants low latency, the longest distance
between the trader and the brokerage servers will be about 454 miles.
Since much of the algorithmic trading is done across the Atlantic and
Pacific oceans, it's unlikely that the 1500 ft maximum range of the 5G
24-38GHz microwave link is going to make much difference.

--  
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/18/19 5:28 AM, nospam wrote:

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Of course it matters. I can't believe you said that. Some cellular plans  
have penalties for "excess usage" that are horrific.  I think AT&T (for  
example only) charges $10/GB after your allotment is used up.

Your second statement is pure speculation.  A clean (5 bar) 4G  
connection may provide an equal speed to a customers home connection.  
Furthermore, the cut-over could happen at a moment when the customer is  
not actively pulling data. It would appear to be seamless.

My statement specifically said "unless your router can notify you"

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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don't use such a plan for backup.

the point you're missing is that some businesses *need* a backup
connection. the cost of being offline is *more* expensive than a cell
plan with overages.

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no.


not usually, and it depends on what the connection speed is.

good luck getting anything remotely close to sustained gigabit on 4g.

cell backup is *far* more likely to be used in a *business* setting,
not a home setting. home users don't need redundant internet
connectivity. facebook can wait.

as i said, businesses often *need* redundancy because the cost of being
offline can be *very* expensive. plus, they usually have *much* faster
connections than home users.  

and real world lte speeds aren't particularly fast either.

typical 4g speeds are 30-50 mbit, which is not that fast:
<https://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-mobile-network,review-2942.html
<https://www.opensignal.com/reports/2018/02/state-of-lte
<https://www.cnet.com/news/4g-lte-showdown-how-fast-is-your-carrier/

home connection speeds are generally faster than that, sometimes *much*
faster. verizon is offering gigabit for $80/mo:
<https://www.verizon.com/home/fios-gigabit-connection/

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they'll notice when they start using it again.

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just about all of them with dual-wan fallback will do that.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/19/19 6:41 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

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That's MUCH faster than a connection that is down.

[snip]

--  
"The dogma of the infallibility of the Bible is no more self-evident
than is that of the infallibility of the popes." [Thomas Huxley]

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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and slower than when it's up, and users will notice the change.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/20/19 2:21 PM, nospam wrote:
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See my previous reply. I have proven almost ALL of your statements to be  
false.

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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actually, you didn't. your numbers were false and misleading.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/20/19 7:56 PM, nospam wrote:
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Oh good comeback. I post a link to statistics and you declare them false  
with no opposing statistics..

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/19/19 4:41 PM, nospam wrote:

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It's not speculation. It's fact. The "average" home user has less than  
20 megabits.  High speed connections are the domain of the city folk. At  
best, 1% of people in the United States have a gigabit connection. This  
isn't speculation.  
https://www.statista.com/statistics/616210/average-internet-connection-speed-in-the-us/


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Well yeah.. It's not a gigabit protocol. I've never seen anything faster  
than 50mbps out of 4G.  I spent 5 years upgrading AT&T cell sites to 4G  
as a direct employee.


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No joke.. I own an ISP. I know exactly what business users want and  
exactly what home users want. I provide solutions to both.

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No. No they don't. This is proof you haven't a clue.  The AVERAGE  
business in the United States is a small business. Business class  
connections are sold as guaranteed bandwidth. If you purchase 100mbps  
from Cox Cable, they _must_ provide you with 100mbps. They can't give  
you almost 100mbps, or 100mbps only during off-peak hours.   It's  
guaranteed speed and unlimited usage, as the general rule.

Home users have data caps and speeds that are often nowhere near what  
they think they're getting. Most wording for home internet is "Up to XX  
megabits per second!" or "Data Limitations may apply". And sure, you  
might be getting 100mbps at 3:00 AM but it might drop down to 50mbps in  
the 6pm - 11pm time slot when everybody in your node is beating the shit  
out of the connection by watching GoT in 4K.

Verizon's fiber service has a data cap for fuck's sake. Currently it's a  
2TB / month.  Do you have any idea how fast you can burn through that  
with a gigabit connection? Sure, it's unlikely you would if you're being  
normal.. But it certainly could happen, especially if you, for example,  
failed to properly password-protect your wifi connection or used an  
insecure protocol.

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It's 50% faster than the average speed in the United States. Explain to  
me how a speed that is faster than what MOST people have, shouldn't be  
considered fast?  If your car does 50mph and mine does 100mph, it's fast  
to YOU. It's not fast to a Formula 1 driver. But it's still fast.


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No.. No they aren't. We've addressed this above. The AVERAGE connection  
speed is 17.1mbps, in the United States.

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Can you cite any stats? I used the reasonable statement of "some",  
you're brushing up against "all".  All I have to do is find 2 that don't  
and your statement is false.


Re: I need dual band recommendation

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home users do not need redundant internet, so their speeds are entirely
irrelevant.

your numbers are also wrong.

<https://www.speedtest.net/reports/united-states/
  During Q2-Q3 2018, the average download speed over fixed broadband in
  the U.S. was 95.25 Mbps. Average upload speed was 32.88 Mbps.



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no it doesn't.  

<https://www.verizon.com/about/news/yes-you-can-use-fios-as-much-as-you-
want-really>



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having a gigabit connection doesn't mean non-stop downloading 24/7.

for many people, it means shorter download times for large items, such
as os installers and updates.




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nope.

<https://www.speedtest.net/reports/united-states/
  During Q2-Q3 2018, the average download speed over fixed broadband in
  the U.S. was 95.25 Mbps. Average upload speed was 32.88 Mbps.


the *slowest* speed verizon fios currently offers is 75 mbit and they
are heavily advertising gigabit, with all sorts of promos.


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2 doesn't invalidate anything.

there are shitloads of routers out there, each of which has many
different firmware versions.  

every router i've seen with dual-wan (or quad for that matter) has some
method of notifying the user.  

there might be a router that does not, but i've not encountered it. not
offering that would be a dumb mistake on the part of the manufacturer.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/20/19 7:56 PM, nospam wrote:

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Oh yeah? Then fucking explain this:  
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/04/verizon-warns-fios-user-over-excessive-use-of-unlimited-data/

Explain this: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/124344

Explain this:  
https://hardforum.com/threads/insider-verizon-caps-fios-at-10-tb-and-dsl-at-1-5-tb.1860865/

You're citing, as authoritative, Verizon's LIES.  They cap data. End of  
Story.

I'll concede my 2TB number was off. (The data shows they have caps as  
low as 7TB). But it was less off than your statement. You said no caps  
at all. BUT THEY HAVE CAPS. I've presented you with 3 pieces of  
evidence.  Will you simply declare it to be false?

Here's one more:  
https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/1/8528671/verizon-warns-unlimited-data-customer-to-stop-using-data

This shows Verizon warning customers using as low as 7TB of data.


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That's not what I said. I said you CAN burn though your cap pretty damn  
fast. But as I've proven to you, Verizon has caps as low as 7TB for  
FiOS. Now we can do the math...  At full speed, on a 1 gigabit  
connection, it would take you exactly 17 hours 6 minutes 12 seconds to  
blow through a 7TB cap.  MATH - END - OF - STORY

https://downloadtimecalculator.com/

Or are you going to dispute actual math?

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Well, I gave you the stats and you go to ONE website that measures  
broadband speeds, ONLY OF THE PEOPLE THAT VISIT IT, and declare it  
authoritative for ALL situations. I've given you links to research data.  
Data that was sought and and collected ACTIVELY and not __passively_ as  
is done by Speedtest.net


See here:  
https://broadbandnow.com/report/us-states-internet-coverage-speed-2018/

Your claims are LIES.

Big businesses have gigabit connections.  In most of the US (outside of  
cities) a 1gbit connection runs about $2,500/month. In some places it's  
$3,500/month.  You think most small businesses are paying that?  What  
the hell would a small business need a 1gbit connection for?

I have a gigabit connection because I own an ISP. I resell it. I  
certainly don't have a gigabit at home. I can't afford $2,500 a month  
for internet.

Here's a fucking breakdown of every single state. Conclusion? 18.7mbps  
is AVERAGE. Do you know what the word average means?

https://statetechmagazine.com/article/2018/05/the-average-internet-connection-speed-of-every-state-2018-perfcon

How about this article?  
https://psmag.com/news/why-is-american-internet-so-slow

I've given you overwhelming evidence, data from research, and links to  
information that says the average internet speed in the US is less than  
20 megabits per second. You declare it to be false. Before you declare  
the entire news reporting industry to be liars, I'd check yourself.


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What's your point? Nobody has it.

As of the end of 2016, Verizon said it had a total of 5.7 million FiOS  
internet connections. For the full year, Verizon added 235,000 FiOS  
broadband customers, down from 350,000 broadband subscribers added in 2015.

Assuming a constant adoption of 235,000 subs per year (even though data  
from Verizon itself, shows adoption to be slowing) we can extrapolate a  
total of slightly less than 6.7 million subscribers by the end of 2019.

That's nothing.. Coax provides internet to roughly 60,000,000 (10 times  
as many) subs. So your FiOS stats are both false (no caps) and  
irrelevant. FiOS usage is less than 10% of cable company provided  
connection.


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Show me anything that says that notification is more prevalent than  
silent fail-over. I've given proof for everything I've said. I said  
"some" provide it. To back that up I mentioned MikroTik. One is some.  
You declare "most" with absolutely no data to back it up. Must be nice  
to know as much as God.

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Here's a list of prices for Cox Business:  
https://www.cox.com/business/internet/business-internet.html

Look at the prices. It's fact that most businesses in the USA are small  
businesses (less than 50 employees).

I quote the article:
How many small businesses are there in the United States? 28 million.  
That?s correct: 28 million small businesses in the United States. Not  
impressed? To put this in perspective, there are 18,500 large companies  
in the US. That?s 28,000,000 versus 18,500.
========================================================================

18,500 large companies versus 28 FUCKING MILLION small businesses.  Most  
businesses are SMALL.

Now go look at those prices.  How much do you figure the average  
business (a small one) is spending on internet?

A home user can (by your own words) get 1GB for something like  
$100/month.  A business connection, of the same damn speed is more than  
8x the cost and comes with a 3 year contract with heavy pre-termination  
penalties!

  Cox Business Internet - 1000    Up to 1000x35 Mbps    $780.00/mo for 36 months

Do you think the average small business in the US is paying $800/month  
for internet?


Re: I need dual band recommendation

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just about everything can do that these days, and it's giga *bit* ports.

you also didn't say how large of an area to cover. for bigger spaces,
including a medium to large house, a mesh unit will work well, some of
which are *very* easy to set up (some claim a few minutes) and can even
be securely administered remotely. for smaller spaces, just get one or
maybe two nodes.

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the better routers (and other products) are easy to use and don't need
tech support.  

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most are, but nothing can guarantee 100% uptime.

synology, asus and ubiquiti amplifi are good choices. netgear and
linksys/belkin not so much.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/9/19 7:13 AM, nospam wrote:
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I sell the Netgear WNR3500L100NAS, but it is 2.4 Ghz only.
And it is the ONLY netgear product I will sell.  As
far as I can tell, the netgear stuff my customer's buy
on their own and have me set up is total crap.

The last one, I could log into the router but not get out to
the Internet.  I thought something was weird when I could
update the firmware on the router.  Then I tried attaching
over the wireless and out on the internet I went.  Total
crap!

Lynksys/belkin "not so much" is a good description.  "Almost"
has to apply.

I have had the WORST dealings with Ubiquiti.

I will check out asus and synology.

Thank you!

Re: I need dual band recommendation

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that is old and slow.

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that could be for any of a variety of reasons.  

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<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/33-linksys-route
r-models-leak-full-historic-record-of-every-device-ever-connected/>
  More than 20,000 Linksys wireless routers are regularly leaking full
  historic records of every device that has ever connected to them,
  including devices' unique identifiers, names, and the operating
  systems they use. The data can be used by snoops or hackers in  
  either targeted or opportunistic attacks.

it's best to run an alternate firmware, such as dd-wrt, which can do a
lot more but it also makes it not as easy to set up and manage.

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ubiquiti is *very* good and *very* reliable, just not as easy to set up
as typical consumer products.

amplifi is more consumer oriented than their standard fare and also
works well.

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asus also has alternate firmwares, one of which is basically stock asus
with bug fixes and some feature tweaks (merlin).  

synology's ui is not the usual web ui, which is much easier to set up
and works quite well. it's linux underneath, and can be tweaked if
desired.

Re: I need dual band recommendation
On 6/9/19 6:32 PM, nospam wrote:
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Yup.  But it just works.  And I need a dual band sub for it
that is just as reliable and easy to set up

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