Napco system questions

I wasn't referring to things like zoning options, Robert. The end-user rarely sees these and most wouldn't understand what they are. Ademco's highest end system (the Vista 250) still doesn't have telephone line monitoring. This has been a "standard feature" on DSC panels from the start (the only exceptions being the early "1000" and the "1500"). All of their panels had "chime", bell supervision, and "quick keys". For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered (and sometimes more). If you take a look at the zone options menu, you can program a number of features now that you couldn't do before. They remain one of the easiest systems to keypad program which probably accounts for their popularity.

As is known here, I use Napco. Through the years I've occasioally attended DSC seminars and had to reprogram DSC panels. What I've found is that the ones that I've run accross and have been demonstrated to me at the seminars don't do everything that the Napco panels do. That's not to say that one always needs to do everything that Napco does .... either. But, if I have the choice, I'd rather have as many options at hand as possible in the panel I'm installing, Also, Napco has a number of panels of lesser capability that certainly must have a market too.

As far as ease of programing, I've been programing Napco panels for so long that it doesn't present a problem .... to me. When it's explained to someone how to do it, it's a logical way and anyone that I've taught how to do it, doesn't have a problem with their programing. It's all in the understanding of what the method is. Just like any other panel, I guess there are some out there who have a problem with it. I don't and never did. I just took the time to learn and understand it.

So ... for me, it's not the programing ease or not, that makes me avoid DSC. The total options available could be overlooked because, as I say, one doesn't use all the option the higher end Napcos have anyway, but to me it's the cheapness in the quality of the DSC producst that bothers me. Everything is so flimsey. Every thing is made out of tissue paper. Metal, plastic, PC boards. Much too delicate. Their flat transmitters .... if you open them more than 3 or

4 times, the case is ruined. You have to bend the cabinet doors so they'll fit on the box. You put a little pressure on the screw terminals and the PC board bends like it's about to crack.

I'm used to the panel I've been using for so many years so obviously, I'm in no market to change but if I were, even though I don't like Ademco/Honeywell documentation, I'd go with them as second choice, not with DSC. As far as programing any panel. To me, someone looking to change panel mfg should not let ease of programing take precedent over what the panel can do and it's quality. One can always learn how to program their panel of choice. It's just a matter of practice.

Whenever Napco has come out with a new panel or downloader program, I take an entire day off ..... set it up on the bench and spend the entire day programing and writing down questions that I have to ask tech support .... in order to understand it. Trying to do it out in the field is not the thing to do. After that ... it's just practice, practice practice.

Those that are not willing to learn about what they do for a living .....in order to obtain quality and more options, that's their problem. I guess DSC programing appeals to those that fall into that category.

And I can appriciate that too. I just ran across a guy who's been using Napco for about twenty years. I was talking about obtaining signal strength for wireless transmitters when installing a system. He asked ..... "How do you do that?" I don't know if I siged and rolled my eyes in my mind or on the outside, but I told him to read the f.....g instructions.

Now that's my idea of a primary candidate as a DSC user.

We partly agree. He may not see them but he certainly benefits from them when they're used right. Our job is to provide a system with the features that best meet the client's needs. He doesn't care about features -- just that the system "does what he wants". For example, Napco has auto bypass and auto re-arm. With these two (individually selectable) options you can make it very easy to arm the overhead door without leaving a lengthy delay for the family to exit.

Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch. I have clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid doesn't forget to arm the system when they leave. Napco allows me to auto-arm after a certain time of day *if* there hasn't been any motion for xx hours. That's not a "standard" feature but it can be done through a few programming tricks. Remember when I told you about the Orthodox Jewish homes I protected in CT? They needed a system that would not cause motion detector LEDs or relays to trip during holiday periods and weekly Shabos hours. With Napco I can disarm the system, power down the motion and glass break detectors, re-arm the system without the interior detection and, in the morning, bypass the "Shabos door" for a specific time slot so the family can leave for the synagogue. At the end of Shabos (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe detectors and, if needed re-arm the system. Try doing any of that with a DSC system.

Napco offers it.

Napco too. Also, most Napco systems are partitionable. Any keypad can view and operate its "home" partition and/or every other partition, individually or en masse.

Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the price or the features.

They are easy but that is mainly because they have far less options from which to select.

Absolutely agree, especially about having the options. It's generally better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

Same here. Years ago when Napco first came out with the MA-3000 I took the

2-day (or was it 3?) seminar up in Massachussetts. A couple of techs there didn't seem to grast it but all the rest had no problem at all. Like an6ything else, once you've done it a few thousand times it's a piece of cake doing it again or teaching others to do it themselves. Since that is at the core of my business model, Napco's software is a major plus for me.

Yep, that too. When even the cabinets are kind of flimsy, the rest just seems to be low budget as well.

That's true for most techs but for me the programming app is very important. I teach people to use the stuff almost every day so I want an app that's easy to master. Napco's current version of Quickloader (IMO) definitely fills that bell.

problem. I guess DSC programing appeals to those that fall into that category.

I don't think that's fair, Jim. Some folks get used to DSC (as we are to Napco) and simply continue using it in the belief that it's the best choice for their business or (one hopes) for their customers.

Naah. He'd just bush that up, too.

Alternate Translation: Napco panels are harder to keypad program than they need to be

Thats too bad since any installer worth his salt should know how to do that, it's also why Frank stated they were easier to program than Napco

I mentioned program manuals not user.

True but that has nothing to do with DSC

Napco's software is slightly better than it was initially however that isn't saying much, as far as being slow you obviously haven't compared the two software packages.

or timed how long it takes to connect to a Napco panel initially or how slow it is to upload or download a full panel or the fact you have to either keep the phone off the hook or invest in a stupid phone module or the fact you can't download while the panel is armed or how the interface doesn't seem to handle resizing a window very well or how they still haven't integrated past panels like the 2600 or

1010LKDL.

Um yea it sounds like you really know a lot

It's too bad that supposed zillion zone features of Napco doesn't extend to reporting, here's something fun to do, try getting a Napco GEM P-whatever to send water, freeze or sprinkler alarms in Contact ID or SIA, something DSC has been able to do since 1994 with their Power series. And that's only using existing zone types, with programmed Contact ID codes I can send almost every other alarm available.

Napco is stuck with 8 events

Umm okay, never seen any of that before, a circuit board is pretty much a circuit board and I've yet to see a sensor cover break, maybe you have big monkey hands or something.

So did DSC Power series back when Napco was doing the MA series that didn't

Something DSC has been doing since umm 1990 with the PC4000, 1994 with the 832 power series

You obviously haven't priced a PC1616 lately

Like CID or SIA reporting? Hey try sending a refrigeration, foil break, high or low temp, loss of Air Flow, CO2, Pump Activated, low water level, pump failure and 20 other CID signals with any Napco panel

Something DSC has been doing for 15+ years on even the budget systems.

Exactly... So far (thankfully) none of my clients have "special needs".

Yep... and in those instances where a client needs that, I've sold them on the "escort". Just dial the panel on any cell phone and you can turn on lights, bypass zones, arm the interior...

Then why mention it??? "Out of the box" features are the topic of this discussion. I could more than likely auto arm a DSC system following those same parameters (and with appropriate "option" modules), but why bother? If a client is so concerned about whether-or-not the maid remembers to arm the system when she leaves, why not provide them with an Escort module which would allow them to call the system and perform all the necessary functions. In this instance, I don't think it would be in the clients best interests to trust the system to "arm" itself anyway. Would you??

Is that a challenge?? :-) Napco can't do all those things "out of the box". You'll need to program a lot of relays. DSC's 1864 has four programmable outputs "on board". If you add the supervised power supply (something I think you'll need with the size of the systems you're talking about), you'll get another four on top of that. The 1864 has event timers as well. I don't think it would be all that difficult for me to set up a DSC system with the same parameters as your Napco stuff.

Yes... but Napco's significantly more expensive (and harder to keypad program).

Ditto with DSC. Up to eight partitions.

I beg to differ. Napco is significantly more expensive here (in Canada).

And I haven't needed extra options... For those clients that do, I'd prefer Ademco's products over Napco's.

DSC has "budget systems"???? Oh... You must mean "Paradox"!

Now THIS is what you deny doing!

This last time there was a "discussion" here about who started .... what .... regarding political refrences, you denied starting any of it. I knew that you had, but didn't say anything.

HERE is a prime example of instigating trouble. It's got to be obvious to you that these types of digs and references are things that should be avoided ...... I'm sure you'll agree.

Except for a few ....... everyone has been doing pretty good compared to what it was here. It would be nice to keep it that way.

Nope. It's true. I said it. That's just my way of kidding around. It's not meant to belittle you or anyone else here and I wish you wouldn't take it that way. When some of the right-wingers make cracks about Obama (aka His Holiness:)), I laugh and often wise crack right back but it's not personal.

Lighten up, Jim. We can disagree (even openly) about politics without getting pissed off at each other.

Regards, Robert

Accurate translation: Napco panels are more powerful and feature rich than the stuff you like.

I make no claims about the worth of any other installer. If you find it difficult to program Napco that is of no concern to me. All I care is that their systems are so much better quality than DSC and that my clients are able to program them without years of experience.

That says nothing regarding value received by the client -- only that DSC is simple to program.

Sorry, I didn't realize that was your intent. The answer, however, remains the same. Napco manuals are specific to the products being used -- not generic like DSC.

It is the logical extension of your argument that simpler (that is feature poor) is somehow better.

You're wrong on both counts. Napco's current software is significantly better than their first Windows app, which was plain awful. The new app is easy to navigate, doesn't lock up unless you really screw things up and has far better helps. It's still not perfect but that's only because my company didn't write it. :^)

As to comparing, you're wrong again. I have and DSC's app is miserably slow. There are other little bugs in DSC, such as CS comms failures if you leave the pigtail plugged into the PC.

My clients invariably use local connect. It takes less than 10 seconds to connect and download. Even in local connect DSC takes a long time.

A few seconds, even on a P9600. Try that on the larger DSC.

Oh, no. Keep the phone off the hook. How difficult! :^) Of course, that's only if you're accessing the panel remotely. Any decent alarm company supplies its techs with laptops to expedite field service. We did.

You can indeed. Napco allows you to fully control the panel via the software. If it's armed, disarm it and then do the work. Don't forget to re-arm the system when you're done.

You must not have tried it recently. It works fine. However, all of the pop-up windows are already properly sized. Whenever I use the software (more than once a day usually), I run the app in full screen.

They don't support antique stuff any more.

If it makes you feel better to believe you know more than me, feel free to continue.

Piece of cake. Send FIRE fore zone xx. Tell the CS that zone xx is "sprinkler". Any decent CS has the ability to detail what's connected to each individual zone. I have no idea what Monitronix does but even the small CS I ran for many years could do that. If you're having trouble, feel free to call and I'll explain how it's done. :^)

Umm no. A circuit board can be made of flimsy (read "cheap") stuff or it can be better quality material. DSC's boards, their cabinets and pretty much everything they make is just plain flimsy.

you want to talk politics take it to the political group, before you barack this group up again like you had it before you went in the hospital.

Seems a rather crude way to do it since just about every other brand can send it properly.

Unfortunately, that would be useless to these clients. They can't operate electronic equipment, including phones during Shabos or certain holy days.

When did we definew the topic so narrowly? In any case, this is "out of the box" No special hardware is needed -- just knowledge of ways to use the stuff.

I doubt you could do it with DSC modules but in answer to the "why bother" question, it was done because that is what the clients needed.

Although Napco's Wizard IIe will also perform remote control the functions of the Escort, there's a good reason to automate it. Most clients don't want to have to access their systems remotely every time the maid leaves "just to be sure". They want to have their protection with the least amount of hassle. Since Napco provides easy ways to do these things and so much more than cheap-o competitors, I prefer their stuff.

The system can be made more reliable than the maid's or even the client's own memory. We had commercial accounts that paid us extra for "supervised" opening and closing protection. For the benefit of others who may not know, that means not just sending reports but responding if a system isn't armed by the client's designated time each night. By programming the systems to auto-arm we could be certain the system would be armed. The backup, of course, was that our CS software would notify our operator if for any reason the system did not arm. This meant far fewer late night calls to rouse a sleepy client to go down to arm his store or office system. We could also remotely arm using Napco's software but auto-arming saved the client money and enhanced the value of services we provided.

Perhaps. :^)

Sure it can. You just need to program the system properly. Systems which controlled power used a standard Napco module, the RB3008. In many Orthodox homes the clients chose not to even use motion or glass break detectors. For those apps not even the RB3008 was needed. However, DSC couldn't do this with or without any DSC modules.

Try programming those relays to fire every Friday at 4:45 pm and release every Saturday at 6:30 pm or some such time, if and only if the system is disarmed. Try getting DSC to disarm, power down motions, re-arm while auto-bypassing those motion detectors and then "undo" the same sequence at the end of a 2- or

3-day holiday. It just can't be done using DSC hardware.

Napco has enough power to do it without adding the power supply. However, in cases where it is needed, they make a very powerful add-on unit.

Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific things on the first Friday of a given month. Others needed things done on the *last* Wednesday, etc. Try programming that with DSC.

OK, consider this a challenge then. You can do it "virtually" (no hardware purchase required). Just tell me which DSC modules you would use and how you would program the DSC system to do what I've described. Oh, by the way, we also had to perform a little extra service several times a year. Because sunset changes a little every day, we had to make the schedules flexible. Several times a year we would change the start times of each sequence. At the beginning of each year we would enter that year's Yom Tov dates. The Jewish calendar is different from Ours so the dates of important holidays change each year, just like Easter (Passover) does for Christians.

Napco's low end panels, which are equivalent to DSC's mid-range stuff, compete well price-wise. As I mentioned earlier, this whole keypad programming thing is a non-issue for me since I teach DIYers to use the software. I've rarely run across anyone who couldn't use Napco's software with a few minutes of phone support.

Same with Napco, except setting up the partitioning is a snap.

No need to beg. I have no idea what dealers pay for Napco in Canada. I know what I sell it for and we get a few Canadian orders every so often. I try to discourage it though, as it's a PITA dealing with UPS' cross-border rip-of... er, policies.

I suspect that's mainly because you have more experience with Honeywell (nee: Ademco) than with Napco. As I said to Jim, a lot of "preference" is what we've become accustomed to using. I realize that applies to me as well.

OK... I'm no fan of DSC, but a lot of our clients use the product. Their cans are pretty standard (read *not* flimsy) and the circuit boards are pretty standard too. In fact, I seriously doubt they're using anything more (or less) "flimsy" than anyone else is using.

You have a predelection for Napco. That's well and good. Our customers certainly wouldn't recognize the difference between the zone "options" available on a Napco panel and the ones on a DSC, Paradox, or Ademco system. They're all far less sophisticated than the run of the mill DIYer you often tell us that you deal with. What my customers want is a system that's easy to arm and disarm. When it doesn't "arm" they want to know why, so a keypad display that references "open" zones is much appreciated. DSC and Paradox are both really easy to "arm" and "disarm". They're also really easy to teach other end-users to use. People like simple things, Robert. And most of the installers I've spoken with over the years prefer being able to set up a panel quickly and with minimal "fuss". I prefer to keypad program and most systems I set up don't "depart" much from the standard panel defaults. I use the laptop for fire alarm systems most of which are a good deal more complex to program than the "average" home alarm system.

I can see that this thread has the potential to degenerate to a level that I personally don't want to see again. I'll concede that Napco is the superior product in every respect but one, and that's "price". Let's leave it at that.