Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer

Because Arlen just can't handle being corrected when he's wrong. Much like our current President.

At least our current President is not addicted to peppering everything he says with annoying bullet points.

Hi Dan,

I'm suggesting that even the PowerBeams are overkill for what pjp needs. o They're #200 for the set

Amazon sells them (do they ship to wherever pjp lives?):

These are hundreds of times more powerful than any consumer equipment you're likelty to find in any local box store, I wager.

These things go for many miles, so 1km is child's play. o You can always dial down the transmit power as desired

As you've seen in my photos, these radios have a way of multiplying over time, so you will always appreciate that you can re-purpose them any time you like (e.g., if pjp sells his RV, he can re-use the radios).

One example of radio re-use is for him to mount the radio on a pole OUTSIDE his house, where he can feed his own Internet signal BACK into the house, so that he can paint a far off corner of the house.

Running the cat5 cable outside is usually a lot easier than running it inside, which is why we do this neat trick all the time where I live.

All this stuff is weather proofed like you can't believe, besides.

Hi J.P. Gilliver,

That might be a neat idea for pjp (and others) to explore.

Unfortunately, that link shows up "dead" when I just tried it:

Do you have a working link so we can take a look at it for pjp? o What's important is the transmit power & antenna gain!

Also, does anyone know what COUNTRY pjp is in?

Let's look at that antenna, where, I entered its description into Google: o 2.4Ghz Wifi Antenna 25Dbi Rp Sma Outdoor Wireless Yagi Antenna Directional B S2P Which found it for $18 at Amazon:

To see what my favorite distributor, Streakwave, sells like it:

And $14 at Walmart:

Where this has a nice photo of the connector, which seems to be, on first inspection, to be an "N-connector" (like those the bullets have):

Given you need to reduce losses when connecting these things, the $75 "bullet" should plug right in, and that gives you 630mW of transmit power:

Note: You do NOT want to be futzing around with the connectors! (You can lose decibels in just the connection, even when done right!)

Hi John, You have to consider that the user doesn't TOUCH the RF cabling.

The "cable" for RF is always as short as it can possibly be. o Notice there is ZERO cable in my powerbeams, for example.

o And notice my bullet attached to a planar antenna has zero cable

Your setup costs about the same as my setup pictured above does. o Depending on how much your radio costs, of course

The wind is NOT a problem for any of these dish antennas properly mounted. o Neither is the rain.

I wouldn't choose my antenna based on worrying about what won't happen. o I'd choose the antenna based on gain and location

I'd also diligently MATCH the RF connector!

John, The USB dongle "might" be a good idea o But your link didn't work for me.

Do you have a description of it? o Particularly the transmit power & antenna gain

Hi Dan,

I like JP Gilliver's suggestion to use less expensive equipment than the $100 PowerBeams I'm suggesting that pjp use to throw his WiFi from his house to a puny 1 kilometer away - where JP's link was dead so we don't yet know the transmit power of the suggested radio.

But on the antenna connections, I wouldn't suggest extending the length.

o Remember I asked the group WHY my $75 bullet had zero Rf cable?

It's the same reason my $100 PowerBeam also has zero RF cable:

About six inches is the longest RF cable I have, in my $150 rockets, Dan:

There is a really good REASON the RF coax is short to nonexistent, Dan. o Paul already said why, when I asked him why this is the case.

When you need distance by wire, you use cat5 cable. o It's what I've seen all the professionals do.

The only thing pjp needs to do with the RF coax is MATCH the connector. o Everything else is done with cat5 cable.

I like John's idea of less expensive equipment - but we don't yet know the cost or power of the suggested "USB" radio transmitter so we can't do a comparison yet for pjp.

Hi Dan, Thanks for pointing that out, where I apologize if I misunderstood. (it happens to the best of us on Usenet, from time to time).

I'm all for the cheapest best solution that does the job for pjp.

And, Lord knows, I have experience with those nanobeams, one of which is in my photo below, where you see it at the far left on the shelf (it's the dark tan steel dish to the left of the plastic dish powerbeam, and to the right of the T-Mobile cellular repeater on the shelf):

I've even written a tutorial on Usenet (of many) to help people set it up: o How to set up Ubiquiti Nanobeam M2 as an Access Point, wired to a wired extender, on WISP?

That tutorial was written in 2017, but since then, as I already noted to Johann, we've soured on the steel-dish nanobeams, in favor of the newer plastic-dish PowerBeams (which, we replaced with much larger 2GHz rockets, and then we replaced them with less-noise susceptible 5GHz rockets).

In fact, perfectly apropos for the topic of this thread, here is that same nanobeam connected to my IBM Thinkpad laptop, to vastly extend the WiFi range of that ThinkPad laptop so I could work outside by the pool.

Notice that you get hundreds of times the power of the laptop WiFi simply by plugging that nanobeam into the Ethernet port on the Thinkpad!

Maybe even thousands. o It's that simple to extend the WiFi range of a computer with Ethernet.

BTW, I have a few nanobeams myself in use, but I hate them, as we had to replace ALL of them, over time, for the powerbeams and then the rockets.

They're just unreliable in our use model (which I said prior to Johann): o Even so, how much cheaper are nanobeams than the newer $100 powerbeams?

If the NanoBeams are appreciable less expensive than the PowerBeams o I'm all for it since a kilometer for any of these radios is child's play

BTW, as Johann Beretta noted prior, you "could" pull the horn out of that radio, and it would be a LOT smaller, and still be a LOT more powerful than the utterly puny 30mW (or whatever) 1/2 dBi (or whatever) Wi-Fi output of that anemic IBM ThinkPad WiFi.

Notice that simply by plugging the Ethernet cable coming out of the horn into the Ethernet port of the IBM ThinkPad, the WiFi range of that laptop is instantly extended (by a LOT).

That's a key point of this thread, is that this power is availble to all. o If you simply know what to buy & what it can do for you when you have it

Hi Paul,

Thanks for locating the dongle that JP (presumably) had suggested:

Those things certainly are damn cheap, that's fer' sure! o If they work for pjp ... then that's a GREAT idea.

As you can see from this photo, I'm all for just plugging stuff into a typical laptop like my IBM ThinkPad to instantly extend its WiFi range:

I didn't think about it at the time I took that photo (in 2017), but, I could have pulled out the horn, as Johann Beretta noted, and then it would have been a LOT smaller also.

Those "dongles" list the "Mbps" but what about what really matters? o We need the transmit power & antenna gain

That's really what matters. o Whenever they won't say it ... I start worrying.

But I have to easily admit - those things are damn cheap! o If only they work!

Dunno.

Does anyone have experience with these things?

For example, one option for pjp is to only put the Ubiquiti radio on his roof and then use one of those dongles at the RV.

The limitation would be in the weakest equipment which, of course, would be the WiFi dongle so that's why it's critically important to ascertain: o What is the transmit power & antenna gain of those dongles?

Hi Johann,

Thanks for the purposefully helpful terminology hint. o Particularly since the way Ubiquiti uses 'bridge' always confused me

From the Netgear KB article:

o #1 Bridge: Network part 1 ... separation distance ... Network part 2 o #2 Bridge: Computer 1 ... sends traffic ... directly to computer 2

Even in _that_ article, the term "bridge" was loosely used. o Worse - I think - is how Ubiquiti seems (to me) to use that term! :)

For example, here is a photo of my "nanobridge" & "nanobeam" on the shelf o But, I always used them for exactly the same things (don't you?)

Here's a closeup snapshot of the back end of the respective horns:

In terms of size & construction, they're relatively similar in that they both have similarly sized steel dishes (those are magnets in the photo below) & plastic horns:

Which, kind of, is why I'm a bit confused about what's the difference o Between a "nanobeam" and a "nanobridge"

For now, based on your help, I'll call _this_ setup, a Nanobeam bridge!

(More correctly, it's a "nanobeam bridge horn".) :)

Hi Johann,

With respect to colloquial terminology...

As you can see from the numerous worthless trolls who infested this thread o That they insist on proving they can't add any technical value whatsoever

It's clear this newsgroup is composed of extremely few of those "experts". o There's you & Jeff Liebermann who know enough to be considered damn good

Nobody else posted showing anywhere near your current knowledge level o Not even me - where at least I've used this stuff for years to do this

In order to easily and vastly increase the range of my laptop.

Where the point of this thread was to ask others what distance they get. o And to also show others how they can EASILY increase their range too

Where that picture shows just one of many ways to bridge their laptop o Doing something as simple (& powerful) as connecting this to it

Hi Dan Purgert,

One more thing, which surprised me just now, is that when I log into the device that I've been calling a "PowerBeam" but which is labeled as a "NanoBeam M2", the router firmware shows up everywhere as "PowerBeam".

Specifically PowerBeam M2 or PowerBeam M2 400

Since it's unlikely I flashed the firmware, it could be that it came that way, which would agree with the fact I've always thought it was a PowerBeam from the day I had opened the box (as I recall, I think it was sent to me by my WISP to replace a NanoBridge I had prior lent out to replace a bad NanoBridge in the days we were swapping out NanoBridges due to its many failures in the field).

Based on the references I already quoted, others had problems with the NanoBridges that they didn't have with the PowerBeams, so again, I'd recommend, for pjp, he start with the PowerBeams and work down from there.

Even so, a kilometer for WiFi is utter child's play for these CPE devices. o Hence, for pjp to attain a puny kilometer over Wi-Fi is a given.

All pjp needs is to be able to "see" the antenna, where a bit of foliage is OK (there are tons of references of people pushing through foliage despite that there were a few trolls here who claimed it's not possible).

The signal strength is attenuated - but that's why you want the most powerful equipment that fits the application, not the most anemic.

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:26:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Hi Jeff,

I hope you feel better.

Thanks for the details on the Fresnel Zone calculations. o Obviously all our stuff is typical Ubiquiti CPE

We often push through foliage, but, of course, we prefer not to. o And even then, only for short distances or sparse foliage

It's nice to know that the polarizations matter.

We're only using Ubiquiti (& some old Surfnet Mikrotik) wifi CPE stuff.

This "inversion layer" may be why some paths, which are about the same in length (all less than ten miles for example), have vastly different signal strength using the same rooftop devices to the same source access point.

In my situation, I'm only about 6 miles from the WiFi AP, where I generally get about -55 dBm on a Rocket M5 which, for me, is good enough.

It's mountain top to mountain top, so I'm not sure "if" an inversion layer is involved, as the heights are within a thousand feet or so of each other.

I don't profess to understand this stuff like you and Johann Beretta do, but what I "think" you're calling the fade margin is what I colloquially refer to as the "headroom", which is that I strive for a dozen decibels above what works.

I'll take 20 decibels above a working signal any day!

On this, I fully agree with you, in that, for example, the nanobridge M2 "should" work, and 'does' work, but for various degrees of "work".

When we went from the NanoBridge M2 to the NanoBeam M2, all of a sudden, with no other change, we got 3 to 8 decibels better signal strength. Who knows why or how.

Then, over time, we went to the much bigger Rockets, where we progressed from the M2 to the M5 due to noise considerations, where, at the moment, at about 6 miles distance for our WiFi access point, the Rocket M5 with a 34 dBi dish (maybe it's a 30 dBi dish?), our signal is fine at around -50 dBm with good quality metrics and noise floors around 104dBm (as I recall).

Heck, since I feel uncomfortable guessing, let me log into the rooftop radio and take a peek (I hate that "certificate error" we get every time) o Signal strength = -56 dBM (chain0/chain1 -58/-59dBm o Noise Floor = -104 dBm o Transmit CCQ = 76.5% o TX/RX Rate = 144.444 Mbps / 144.444 Mbps o airMAX = enabled o airMAX Quality = 97% o airMAX Capacity = 75%

That has no problem using a WiFi access point about 5 to 6 miles away.

I looked up a few articles on how far people push through foliage.

Here's the first hit explaining that "it's complex":

"foliage attenuation is a function of a multitude of parameters, including frequency, foliage depth, tree types, foliage thickness, leaf density, leaf size, branches, trunks, humidity, wind speed, height of the tree relative to the antenna heights, path length through foliage, etc."

Lots of forum threads talk about WiFi penetration of foliage: o Effect of Wind on Foliage Obstructed Line-of-Sight Channel at 2.5 GHz

o Ubiquiti Nanostation M2 & M5 penetration of 1.1km and 7 treetops o 500 meters of foliage o Networking over 0.5km with trees in line of sight o How severe is the attenuation of trees? o 2.5 KM link(right tools) through trees o High throughput foliage penetration o Outdoor wifi through wooded area o Device Selection for Tree Penetration? o Another 5ghz trees question o Best Wi-Fi frequency for penetrating woods o 2 kilometers with 500 meters of forest in between o How much signal do Trees block? o Non line of sight (NLOS) considerations for wireless o Any Ubiquiti equipment able to punch through trees? o WiFi to gate camera through trees o Ubiquiti Nanobeam for Point-to-Point wireless through some trees? o Long range (1000') outdoor WiFi connection transmission question o Does *anything* work through trees ? o Need to make a link over tree covered terrain o WISP and the love of Trees and Rural etc.

In the end, we just pop up a radio on each end and try it out.

We check signal strength, and, if it's good, we leave it working. If not, then we deal with changing things around.

Please get better.

You've helped advise us many times over the years, which we appreciate.

If only the trolls would disappear, Usenet would be a lot more valuable.

On 10/20/2019 10:38 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote: .

PerhSps they would if you STFU about them/ Maybe it is self inflicted.

Jeeez. You dont realize you are the trolls that should stfu you idiots.

If Arlen stops his silly stuff I'd stop too. He has to show his superiority. Just as you had to reply. See how it works.

And you're off-topic and cross-posting to multiple groups.

The useful takeaway is that we can extend our WiFi range by miles. o Where fixing WiFi range is something people do all the time using this

If you have no need to ever extend you WiFi range, so that you can paint your pool or so that you can use your electronics far from the house, then this thread is the wrong topic for you to post on.

For example, simply plugging this into your laptop, vastly extends range:

Which group(s) do you think fixing/setting up WiFi is inappropriate on?

If you feel this thread is not for one of these groups, tell us why:

It will be interesting to hear your factual adult rationale.

Hi Dan Purgert,

The useful takeaway is that we can fix our WiFi range by miles.

Facts: o On the outside, it's called a "nanobeam"

o On the inside, it's called a "powerbeam" o And, the dish is steel.

Assessment: o Moving forward, I'll call it a "powerbeam"

In that photo above, you can use just the horn to extend your range by bridging your laptop Ethernet to WiFi, without much fuss as it's light plastic.

Essentially, you set up the router software & then you can plug that powerbeam horn into any Ethernet ready laptop or desktop to vastly extend the WiFi range. Except for price, this beats a USB dongle (IMHO), where it's certainly no more costly than adding a repeater would be.

You can use the laptop with both horn & dish, but it's gonna be bigger.

The useful takeaway is that we can extend our WiFi range by miles.

I have no problem naming the device formerly known as a nanobeam as a "powerbeam". o I was never one to quibble about such semantic things anyway

It's the trolls who can only quibble about such things that cloud the otherwise adult technical valuable conversations on Usenet.

Back to JP Gilliver's question and to pjp's question o I think any of the suggested Ubiquiti WiFi devices will work.

A LOS kilometer is puny for WiFi with these things, is it not?

Since we're trying to repair his Internet signal, we need to know of pjp a. What country b. What wind conditions

Let's clarify a few things for the general observer of this thread on that.

1. Since we're discussing TWIN devices, this "5AC" idea is feasible.
2. However, the distances are puny where 802.11 LOS will work just fine.
3. Plus, "5AC" generally costs more, where it's not needed (IMHO).
4. And the setup requires, at least "slightly" more knowledge.
5. Worse, WiFi re-use, which I do all the time Dan, is not possible.

Bear in mind, once you have one of these devices, you find uses for them!

Simply because, at WiFi they are as powerful as you can possibly get.

Dan,

Clearly you and Jeff and Johann know far more than most here, including me, so here's a basic set of related questions which, I think, the answer to will edify MANY people on this ng!

WHAT RANGE CAN YOU ENVISION FOR THIS SETUP AT THE FAR CORNER OF A PROPERTY? o Either just the PowerBeam horn (set up legally) plugged into the laptop:

Or, the entire PowerBeam (set up legally) plugged into a laptop RJ45: Pointing to, oh, say, this bullet & planar antenna set up near the house:

Assuming, of course, clear LOS, low to no interference, etc. stuff. o I haven't tested the range, but it works fine for hundreds of feet, Dan.

Do you think it could go much longer LOS, Dan?

The second question is more apropos for JP Gilliver's "cantenna" query: WHAT RANGE CAN YOU ENVISION FOR THAT SETUP TO A TYPICAL HOME SOHO ROUTER?

The answer to both those questions, would be of use to many I think: a. How far can the PowerBeam connect to a Bullet (& 15dBi) planar antenna b. How far can that same PowerBeam connect to a typical WiFi home router?