ethernet and AC in conduit

Violating national building codes. Putting high voltage AC along with low voltage DC is a clear violation. It's bad not just from a electrical noise perspective, but from a fire and/or electrocution risk.

The additional risk comes from time. Eventually someone forgets why the shortcut was taken. Then something else gets done with the wiring that suddenly raises the safety risk. Like pulling new/more wire through conduit and ripping the insulation on the existing ones. Suddenly you've got live AC on DC wiring and the resulting risks.

I'd imagine most policies would have a section specifically requiring adherence to building code standards.

If you don't have time to do it right, will your estate have any money left over to pay off the damage claims?

Reply to
Bill Kearney
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Thats exactly what they do. My buddy has considerable experience, multiple advanced degrees and is also a registered PE in a half dozen states and he does a lot of forensic investigation work. The insurance companies will gladly write him a relatively small check to save writing a big one. I have read numerous reports he created and is amazing what an experienced eye can find.

Reply to
George

I know of a case where someone added additional wiring to their home and it burned down because a wall fixture they had added had a much larger than rated wattage bulb installed and was left on continuously and ignited the wall. It was a newer home and apparently there was language regarding code compliance. They tried to hang the inspection company but the application and inspector's notes showed a lower outlet count than what was installed.

Reply to
George

Very good. This extended dialogue about insurance and such is probably useful for others....

[Philosophy/Rant warning]: but personally, I have never had to live or work in an insured environment, thank God. My father is an insurance agent, but I consider most insurance (including health) to be a cure worse than the disease, both on a society-wide basis and personally, unless you are one of those ugly people who game the system at the expense of others.

Anyway, I am able to deal with reality and not worry about insurance and litigious society. My own home in the US is an old adobe with a metal roof (all new wiring installed illegally by me) so they never would insure it anyway, even if I wanted. I'm self-insured and like it that way. I try to do things practically correct more than literally.

As far as safety, living in a developing country (Mexico) one sees both how useful (at times) and how ridiculously anal (other times) the hyper-safe US mentality can be. I'm not advocating it, but here, people wire things up with open connections, no tape, no wire nuts, no boxes, and it still works ! OK, they do usually have boxes and tape on connections , but sometimes not- and bare wires are common enough. For whatever reason, death or injury by shock does not appear to be at a detectable level compared to, say, crime or car wrecks etc. I've never heard of an electrical injury in this area, but vehicle accidents are announced daily . I suspect that living in a self-responsible society helps people develop awareness of hazards, although rank stupidity is hardly in short supply here either ! __________________________________

In my case, I am considering running an ac extension in a conduit with the Cat5e for powering an AP on a pole. Too far to extend the DC side of the wall wart. Nobody will ever be anywhere near this plastic conduit and the likeliness of having both the hot and ethernet insulations fail in the exact same point and touch and then have another failure at the connector end such that anybody would touch that is very, very high. More likely to get snake bit standing there !

Though now that I've decided to deploy an old Linksys V4 in this spot, I'm seeing that for $20 I can get a power injector/splitter kit. I wonder if the 12 v power supply will handle 120 feet. I remember Jeff pointing out that they are quite robust and can take a huge drop in voltage...

Let's see, I send 12v * 1A over 120' of 23 ga wire? 5 volts, it appears. But doesn't POE use a pair for each side, so two 23 ga is what, like 18 ga? If so, then 1.5 volts... the linksys could handle it ?

Steve

Reply to
seaweedsl

Correction. My Cat5e is 24 ga. I saw somewhere that doubling lowers it 3 sizes, if true, I'm working with ...21 ga. Over 120 feet, that's

3.2 volt drop. 8.8 volts to this router should work, right ?

Of course if I ever have to replace it...then I'd better use similarly robust device or boosted voltage....

Reply to
seaweedsl

I did (in the lab); it worked fine.

-- Rich Seifert Networks and Communications Consulting 21885 Bear Creek Way (408) 395-5700 Los Gatos, CA 95033 (408) 228-0803 FAX

Send replies to: usenet at richseifert dot com

Reply to
Rich Seifert

yeah - we have warning labels on everything, and lawyers just waiting at the gate....

My s> Very good. This extended dialogue about insurance and such is

Reply to
ps56k

if you are using "real PoE" then the standard covers several schemes, depending on whether you use the signal pairs or spare pairs in the cable. But if you make up your own or use a proprietary injector, you get what is there.

the other thing to remember is the highest voltage you may get on the link needs to be low enough that you dont damage it with over voltage.

Again - if the device is PoE and this is standards based then that has been done for you.

Safest thing to start from is that there is no loss in the cabling and see where that gets you - if nothing else it makes it easier to test before you install it.

i suggest you treat it as multiple parallel runs of the correct gauge to calc the resistance, then work from that.

or - 2 equal runs in parallel halves the resistance, so calc for 1/2 the distance?

Reply to
Stephen

they did last time i had a copy of the IEE regs (a few versions back).

Best practice was to separate mains and low voltage cabling, which is

1 reason you get separation in floor boxes & multi compartment trunking.

the issue here is that Cat5 etc is general purpose low voltage signal cable, and conductors are exposed on RJ connectors so they are easy to touch during changes.

you can get shielded Cat5 - given using it in other environments like chemical plants you should be able to find an equivalent with higher rated insulation, steel wire armour or whatever if you have to do this.....

Reply to
Stephen

Yes, it is an American thing.

NEC = National Electrical Code.

The NEC is produced by the National Fire Protection Association and essentially codifies nationally accepted practices for electrical installations.

While there isn't a single USA wide National code, the states and municipalities that are responsible for inspecting and approving electrical work almost always specify that the work must meet applicable NEC standards.

John

Reply to
John P. Dearing

the problem is that you are mixing terms.

A check would not find "Ethernet" - it would find Cat5 next to mains.

Ethernet just happens to be what the OP wants to use it for, but general purpose wiring is just that.

Reply to
Stephen

No, you're just gambling.

In places where life is cheap the rules are often non-existent. There ends up being a tendency to avoid doing anything, let alone doing it right.

Reply to
Bill Kearney

Too late, Counselor!

Reply to
Not Me

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:49:48 -0500, "Bill Kearney" wrote in :

With all due respect, both those comments are demeaning and out of line.

Reply to
John Navas

What? Questionable advice from Navas? Shame that's not a surprise. That idiot's been giving out bad advice for far too long.

Reply to
Bill Kearney

On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:15:55 -0500, "Bill Kearney" wrote in :

Why would you want to act like a dipwad? All it does is make you look bad.

Reply to
John Navas

Without numbers, then no one can provide a useful answer. However, if numbers had been provided, then this simple solution might have been proposed. Put 30 volts DC down two twisted pair 24 AWG wires. Locate a single chip regulator at the far end to power the AP. All safety and other complications eliminated. But again, a simple answer not possible due to a shortage of numbers.

Reply to
westom1

I suspect this is a US-only thing. Do you guys still allow single-strand wiring or something? In the UK, all house mains voltage cabling is in double-insulated flat-twin-and-earth format, no amount of pulling ethernet cables alongside it will break /that/. Heck, the 6mm variety is hard enough to cut, let alone break! Outside the home the you need armoured cabling in underground ducting at least 0.5m below ground.

Yup.

However the definition of "right" is jurisdiction-dependent.

Bwahahaha. With 40% IHT, I won't /have/ any estate.

Reply to
Mark McIntyre

Ordinary insurance, on the other hand, is the ins-co gambling. Same difference.

What an elitist attitude - and offensive too.

Just because the US has certain habits codified into rules doesn't make them either right or best. It strongly disagree that its 'best' to routinely fingerprint visitors, or create burgers larger than a human head, or drive on the right. Allowing your citizens to carry weapons is completely insane.

And your habit of putting safety labels on everything from coffee machines to nuclear material seems a tad... moronic. Anyone too stupid to know that hot drinks are hot and nuclear material is radioactive shouldn't be allowed sharp objects, and any judge giving a suit court-time should read up on the meaning of frivolous and vexatious litigation.

Reply to
Mark McIntyre

Code of Practice, not law or regulation.

Sure, but BP isn't the same as regulatory requirement. As much as anything else you don't want some moron electrician cutting the network, or an equally dim network tech frying himself on the mains. In the same way b-p mandates that the upstairs ring runs upstairs and the downstairs one runs downstairs, thus neatly avoiding what I did a few years back - pulling the upstairs ring's fuse and cutting the cable, only to discover my predecessor had run the downstairs loom upstairs. I discovered this, of course, by cutting through the live ring... :-)

That said I can't be a*sed to find my handbooks right now but I don't belive its compulsory to separate them.

Sure, but still tricky to tie onto the /outside/ of underground conduit. There tends to be earth in the way... :-)

Reply to
Mark McIntyre

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