Unusual Challenge

On 10/20/2021 5:31 PM, ABLE1 wrote: > Hey Guys, >

Because I am actively involved in every activation I notice the batteries start to go by the range the remote works at. When the batteries are low I have to be on my driveway, and sometimes hold the remote button down for an extra half second before the receiver recognizes the code.

If you are using a regular unsupervised door transmitter I think it just sends the code once and that's it. If the receiver doesn't recognize the code it doesn't activate. Placing the receiver antenna outside in a manner similar to what I did may help. Another option might be to setup some redundancy. Set up contacts on the door with bias so that it activates the transmitter both when the door opens and when the door closes. It may result in an annoying double notification buzz, and battery life will likely be halved. It might however be more reliable for the intended purpose.

Still staying with your current application I suggest one day when you take a break for lunch you park across the street and watch the door while you mac out. Maybe a couple different days if you are in the area. You may notice if the door doesn't always close properly or if its held partly open when the wind blows from a particular direction. Something as simple as repositioning the magnet so its just barely within its clear change at maximum closing travel of the door and swings through its full clear range before going into its triggered state. If a simple answer like a Z-bracket or spacers won't work you can also consider moving the magnet and contact closer to the midpoint of the door. This has the same affect of allowing the door to open slightly before triggering which can help overcome door conditions that may not allow the circuit to reset otherwise.

Of course the door contact, transmitter, or receiver could also be faulty. Any lighting storms around the time the contact started acting up? We are all familiar with contacts being welded shut, but sometimes they break free and act unreliably.

If triggering is an unresolvable issue with a door contact then photo beams and IR curtains generally trigger more reliably than a door that is standing open, but they have other issues. The door could block the beam. The sun shining in a glass door or window can affect them. Children running around like maniacs can cause runaway activations. Mylar ballons tied to a fan can drive you crazy.

Getting further out there. I once used a basic photo beam door chime outdoors for a vehicle drive thru. The customer thought it was great, and it prevented me from having to cut the asphalt to put in a loop. In order to reduce false activations and low sensitivity I made a deep steel hood out of steel tube and put it inside of it. Something like that might also work in a regular personnel door setting. Most business doors swing both ways or open out (per code) except possible at WalMart where they lock customer area doors while customers are in the store in the evenings.

Good luck. I hope my rambling gave you something useful.

Thanks Bob!! That was some very good ramblings. :-)

I will hold the secret resolve until Jim and Rocky have a chance to respond.

Les

Use better wireless with longer range like Innovonics

I totally agree. Going to a 900mHz would be better all around. I already pick the parts and got prices. Going to be salty.

Again I am holding for one other to chime in before the revel.

Thanks,

Les

Ok Guys!!! Here you go. After reading you should be ABLE to get a good nights sleep. :-)

And now for the rest of the story!!

I had installed this setup in 2013 and it worked great with some minor issues over the years. Batteries, switch, etc. There were some reports of missed signals but was never sure if it was the RF signal loss or the human ear missing the burp of the sounder. It has been just recently that they have know that it has been more of an issue and called me back to help work out a different plan to get the signals better so that they would not miss a customer in the showroom.

When I got there last week as I said I checked the batteries and they were a bit low so I replaced with new. Not that it made much difference but it did miss a signal and I thought is was due to the fact that I triggered the door to fast. Assuming that the receiver or transmitter had some delay built in for excessive trips.

I moved the transmitter to the shop and it worked every time while there. Placed the transmitter back in the attic above the showroom and I put the transmitter back in the attic above the showroom where it was but staff was in a meeting so I could not test.

Was told later that they tried it and it did not work a total of 3 times

Now the receiver has a wire about 7" long as a antenna. I have it hanging over the edge of a window so that the walls would not block the RF signal. The Transmitter is in the attic space on a vertical

Needless to say this is a intermittent problem that is NOW not working!!

Now for the revel!!!

It was mentioned the the bug screen was a metal mesh type. And I was asked if that could be causing the problem. I said that I did not think it would but, it certainly would not have any bad effects at this time of year to remove the screen. Well they did in the afternoon and did another test and the system burped the horn 13 out of 13 times. ? WHAT!!!!

They did this with the window open as well. They are going to test with the window shut the next day to see what the results will be.

They tested with the window closed the and it worked just fine 5 times.

I did some searching online and metal mesh screens as far as I can find are not an issue with RF. That is unless I am involved!!!

What I also found out was that this window is where they put a small A/C unit during the summer. Needless to say they have to remove the wire mesh screen to install the A/C and then they re-install the screen when they take the A/C out. If they remember to do so.

So this problem is sometimes there and sometimes not there!!! a.k.a. A intermittent problem!! Now SOLVED!!!

I strongly suggested that they get the screen frame re-screened with a NYLON MESH screen!!!

Hope you enjoyed the story!!

Les

That might on depend on the mesh size. You can can get harmonics. I never heard of it being an issue with relatively low frequency stuff, but in TVRO its one reason why screen mesh dishes are not used with K band. Back in the day when we had dual K/C band dishes in order to save over the cost of a 8-12 foot solid spun dish they would sometimes make a screen dish around a spun dish. The screen worked for the C band need for greater surface area and the spun center worked for the K band. If I recall it was not a perfect solution, but I got out of satellite installation for a few years during that time period.

Since the transmitter is remote from the contact, put it outside in a plastic J box under the eve. I've done that with LAN WIFI bridges with good success. Heat can be an issue, but you don't have to deal with the same level of heat that I do. Home Depot used to stock a nice large plastic J-Box.

Hmmm So - - - maybe making the antenna a little longer so it could stick outside the building would have helped (?) . Re: The resistor. As I understand it, the closed circuit contact is wired from ground to the trigger terminal. Without a resistor, when the switch opens, the trigger terminal just goes from negative to "float". When you add the resistor, which is wired to the positive terminal when the switch opens, it "pulls" the trigger terminal to Positive. Which is a definite swing from negative to positive rather than to just to a float level. Changing component values on the relay PCB over the years could change the sensitivity level of he trigger input making the relay output of the board a "sometime" thing. . With regard to the screen affecting the signal, I know microwave ovens utilize the fact that screens block microwaves so you can look inside the oven glass. I'm thinking of a situation that if you had a low frequency transmitter and a receiver and you put one inside and one outside of the building with a metal window screen in between and then - - - still in the line of sight but begin moving one device further and further to the side - - - the increasing angle would, in effect, make the holes in the screen smaller and smaller. Perhaps affecting the signal. Is the window looking straight at the other building or is it off to the side? . I'm also thinking that I'm putting wireless window transmitters behind casement window metal frame, metal screens all the time with no problems.

Wanting stories.. Well way back in the day of Transcience radio systems. We did a lake house with their system for doors, windows etc... attached to an admeco 1022 panel and a 612 tape dialer ((yea, yea, kind of old)) any way, every thing worked fine for several years.. Then one day the owner called in a panic... Seems his daughter (she had grown up by then) had slipped out one night and the system didn't go off.. Well we checked the system, sure enough nothing worked. (unless it was a line of sight receiver to transmitter..) Long story short, they had re papered the entire house with Mylar wall paper... They had turned the entire house into a faraday cage.... Only cure was to hard wire the house...

Never over look Faraday, when he said it blocked RF, he wasn't kidding... RTS

At this point "since it is working 100%" I choose to leave as is. If there is an issue in the future my thinking is that the first will be to add a piece of Coax to the board, extend to out side and trim off the outer sheath and braiding for that last 6" to match the existing. I have done that on other problem child's and it works quite well!!

As for the angle of signal to the screen.

I measured a nylon screen on my deck. It measured the square of the pattern at .075" square grid with the bands being .008". I did a rough angle layout on Google earth and from Tx to Rx Ant. is about 8.823 degrees. Plotting out in my CAD as best I can that angle to the screen grid should not block the RF too much but it apparently does. I am guessing that if you add some dirt to the screen it would block off a bit more and would shave some corners off the wave length of the RF signal.

In order to get a real block of that screen grid the angle would have to be closer to 41 degrees. The only way to verify would be to take the transmitter and place it at 90 degrees to the screen and see if it makes any kind of difference. Well that would be for a lazy day and a much younger guy to run the test!! Not me, not now!!

So maybe there is enough signal loss it just couldn't get there.

Thanks for the extra thoughts!!

Les

Absolutely right about Faraday!!!

About 15+ years ago I was looking over the bid specs for a school. Under alarm communication was listed a Ademco 612 Tape Dialer.

I had to strongly suggest to the school management that they get the bid specs modified to the new world.

Les

Yes, that does make sense. The next time I am there on site I will install a 1K resistor just to be safe.

Thanks!!

Les

Thanks to Les for forcing us to stimulate our bain snells umm - - - name spells I mean - - - Harumph! - - - - BRAIN CELLS ! Speaking of which The other day I discovered that I needed another audio glass break detector in an area in a finished new construction pre-wire job. I really had to strain my brain to remember how to wire the detectors to bring them back to the panel on two separate zones on one four wire. I knew it could be done but I just went blank trying to remember how to wire it. I blame it on the fact that I've been doing this for so long and I keep putting new things in my brain and I keep losing brain cells and that causes some of the old stuff to fall out the other side. I don't think there's any more room left up there.!

That is very funny Jim. I was saying the same thing today when I was forced to learn a new camera system I was installing. I was telling my customer that I lost some old knowledge when the new was installed. He thought I was telling a joking. He came back with the fact that we only use 10% of our brain capacity. To which I said that my 10% is overly full and any new stuff that comes in something has to go. And once it does it can't be recalled because it is gone gone gone!!!

BTW I hope you figured out the wiring scheme you were having a problem with. I prefer to just run one 4c per device and not have to try the other stuff!! :-)

Have a good weekend.

Les

I know, I know, I always run a four wire or at least a pair to just about every opening ( especially on a prewire) but I thought that one audio glass break would cover the area when wired it. It's all closed up now, but when I tested the single GB it wouldn't pick up the tester from all windows so now I have to run two detectors back to the panel on a single four wire but I want them on separate zones. I'm not sure if you are asking me how to do it or offering to tell me how to do it. I finally figured it out but I had to draw it out on paper. if you want to know how, let me know. . Problem is, now that I've re-learned that, I wont know till next time I have another problem that I can't figure out what it is that I've "un-learned", - - - - because I think I'm only working with about 8% of my bran smells now. . Tell me Les Please tell me that sometimes you hear things rattling around up there. Don't you Les? Huh? Don't you?

I always check to see if the panel is positive or negative common.. I can then use that wire from the power feed to sensors as a common, which then opens up an extra wire as a return feed to the panel.. RTS (that use to drive my old boss nuts, every time he worked on one of my wired panels... he said he could tell, any time he opened up a panel and didn't find a return wire on a loop zone...) LOL RTS

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the challenge but I think I will pass. I know it is possible with a 4 wire but do I really need to add it to my "bran smells"?? Maybe later, maybe!!

Well I have 'tinnitus' so the other bolts and washer flopping around in there have something to help make a musical tone. :-) Some time ago I was on a discussion group on line about tinnitus. There was a doctor of some sort on there that offered a free week of counseling at his office in Florida. You just had to get there and spend the time. He said there were 3 distinct rules that had to be followed.

For what it is worth the volume has gone up by about 60%.

BTW I stopped installing Audio Glass Breaks 20+ years ago. Had customer with false alarms because their cats were playing and knocked over a set of stacked brass coaster on to the floor and other things. I decided that the only true way to test them was to throw a brick thru a window. But I tell the customer I don't pay for repairs. Motion Detectors are much easier to test effectively.

OH!! So where to you put the EOLR's??

And wouldn't it be easier/simpler to place the two GB's on the same zone if they are in the same area??

Les

What a coincidence. I too have tinnitus which I attribute to too many years of shooting without ear protection ( which wasn't even a "thing" when I was a kid. ) I know that because my right ear is way worse than my left.

I always present the option of PIR's first but with free roaming animals, in this case the customer opted for glass break detectors instead. And yeah, it would be easier to put them both on the same zone but - - - i'm too f%#ing stubborn. I know if I did that, the first false alarm would be in that area and - - - well - - - you know the rest of the story.

I attribute my tinnitus and hearing loss to little guns, big guns, very BIG GUNS(6"), RC Plane, RC Boats and 21 years working in very loud manufacturing, etc. Can't go back and fix it. And yes, my right is worse than the left.

Which could indicate that you are right handed and left bran smells!!

Yes, I have one customer that insisted on GB's every where. Ok for her. Good customer as well. And yes, I know the rest of the story!! :-)

Some days Jim I think you are my perfect twin I never had!!!

And in other news...............................

Les