I'm a professional installer, and I do battery calculations on residential systems. The fact that you use a single 4 amp-hour battery only goes to show why you should not be allowed to touch fire alarm systems. Oh wait, you don't have a license. You're NOT allowed to touch fire alarm systems.
NFPA 72, 11.6.2, "Household Fire Alarm Systems," states that "the secondary source shall be capable of operating the system for at least 24 hours in the normal condition followed by 4 minutes of alarm. Now, please explain to us how to determine whether a given system complies with this requirement without doing battery calculations.
Then you can explain to us how even a 7 amp-hour battery provides 24 hours of standby on a system with three alphanumeric keypads, a zone expander or two, plus several motions and glass breaks. I'm being deliberately vague on the equipment list to make a point: you just don't know the answer until you do the math for the exact system in question.
Of course, you'd probably solve this problem with one of those special Napco diode battery harnesses.
I think you've got this one wrong, friend. Napco provided a Battery Diode > > >
when > > > > I installed their add-on power supply. In fact, it's still listed on the > > > > ADI server as a valid part, although AFAIK Napco has stopped producing them. > > > > > > > > If you make current flow in the wrong direction on a battery charging > > > > circuit you'll have a lot more than a dead battery to worry about. To test > > > > your theory take a discharged battery and connect its terminals to another, > > > > fully charged battery with the terminals reversed (so you can get current to > > > > "flow back into the dead battery"). All kidding aside, don't really try > > > > this. The results can include fire and explosion, depending on the type of > > > > battery and its condition. > > > > > > > > BTW, the charging circuits on many alarms are actually 13.8VDC -- not 12 > > > > Volts. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > >
Robert L Bass > > > > > > > > =============================> > > > > Bass Home Electronics > > > > The Online DIY Alarm Store > > > >
formatting link
> > > 2291 Pine View Circle > > > > Sarasota, FL 34231 > > > >
optional PS3000 power supply, but do need to supervise for AC > > > brownout. This module connects the PS3000 jack to the AUX relay, which > > > is triggered upon brownout. > > > > > > Secondly, the Dual Battery Harness, to which I believe you were > > > referring in your post, does not have a diode in it at all, it simply > > > parallels the battery leads to allow the connection of
2 or more > > > batteries to the MA3000, or any other panel. > > > > > > I do not think UL would require a diode in the battery harness that > > > would waste a valuable 0.7 VDC in a low battery condition just to > > > protect against the installer reversing the battery leads > > > accidentally. There is already a thermal circuit breaker on the board > > > for this type of protection. > > > >
two directions, you will soon have a very dead battery. > > > > > > Best Regards, Oleg
HERE NORMAN PROVES GOOFY ASS WRONG ALSO
Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Better not use a diode to isolate the two batteries. Remember, current has > > > > > to flow both directions on a battery lead: into the battery when it's > > > > > charging, and out of the battery when it's discharging. So if you orient > > > > > the anode towards the charging terminal and the cathode towards the > > > > > battery, the battery will charge but will not be able to deliver power to > > > > > the system when the AC is off. If you orient the diode the other > > > > > direction, the battery will not charge. > > > > > > > > > > Diodes also have a 0.6 volt drop across them, so if you charge a battery > > > > > through a diode, you are not getting the full charging voltage. > > > > > > > > > > Use a fuse or circuit breaker instead, preferably the harness provided by > > > > > the panel manufacturer.
SO those who want to take Goofy Bass's advise because you think he knows every thing -THINK TWICE.
On the other hand anyone buying equipment on line from someone like you wouldn't have a clue that you're a convicted felon for pulling a gun on someont and responsible for someones death either.And because of that you couldn't get an installation license anyway. Have the authoities is Florida finished investigating you ...... again, for the SECOND time, for skirting the alarm trade laws in your state? Are you still operating your business from South America ..... so you can avoid them? Well, you can't stay there forever. They'll get ya sooner or later.
Isn't it YOU that"'s got a years and years long record in Usenet of going real life with people by calling their places of emploment and telling lies about people simply to get them in trouble because you don't like them. And it's you also that goes to competitors websites and makes derogatory comments, under a false name, to make your competitor look bad too ...... aren't you the one who does things like that. Why SURE you are.
On the surface, when someone comes to this group for information, no one would actually know that you lie to end users by implying that your in the installation business and that you haven't got a clue about what the new products do, except what you read ..... or steal from the people in this group or from publications from manufacturers. Why the end useres wouldn't even consider that you've got numerous unsetteled Better business claims against you either ..... unless someon pointed it out now would they?
So lets see ...... why don't you tell us again how the end user should beware of installation companys and consider doing the job himself? Yes, yes, tell us how much safer he is buying his products on line from someone like you.
Oh and if any of the above is incorrect or if you'd like to call me a liar, go right ahead. But we all know that you can't ........ because it's all been documented in Google for the years and years that you've been scamming end users in Usenet.
You' seee Beebee? What did I tell ya was gonna happen eventually? You've burned all the bridges and too many people. Now it's all coming together naturally. Just the way it should. Just the way I thought it would. You're getting exactly what you deserve. No one will tolerate a nasty vindictive lying swindler forever.
Mark, I would caution you on providing any information about yourself or your company. You may or may not know that he's gone real life with numerous people for over 10 years in Usenet and touts this method as being his favorite way of "taking care" of people that take issue with is abhorrent conduct.
Mike I hope you don't really leave. It's people like you who see this sack of shit for what he is and to continue to beat the piss out of him. As long as everytime he post to this group he gets his ass kicked ...... individually by the people he demeans, that'll be the end of him eventually. If you leave ....... he wins. Stick around ............. there are still some diamonds in all this crap.
OH and by the way ............ that was B E A U T I F U LLLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bass is a fart in a windstorm. He already tried when I was here years ago to mess with my employment and it got him exactly nowhere. It may be his favorite way of "taking care" of people that take issue with him, but a very inefficient use of power and time. If I worried about everyone who might complain, I would not be able to do my job. Bass is actually his own worst enemy. Unfortunately, a customer of his has to get burned once, before they figure out that they are being hung out to dry. Once the average DIY'er is in over their heads, they find themselves paying a dealer, or just giving up on the project. Either way, the equipment purchase becomes a waste of money and time for purchaser.
I strive to keep the company out of my newsgroup posts (when I do post), because this is a discussion forum for professional installers/service tech's, not a sales forum. We advertise in the trades, attend the shows (in Europe, Asia, and the Americas), and have a very large and loyal worldwide dealer base. There is no need to push the products here. As professionals, you have already worked on our stuff, and either like it or don't like it. I am here in the group to listen to the noise and scuttlebutt in the field about other products. We have processes in place to document dealer complaints and caveats. That helps us design better products. But I still like to talk to and hear from the field tech's. Being in tech support lets me keep a finger on that particular pulse. Even though I am not in the field anymore, I am still a service/install tech at heart, and see the tech's that call as compadres.
-- A Crowded Elevator Smells Different to a Midget
Mark, Thanks for your professional attitude! It's a refreshing change from the blowhard bullshit of RLB! It's my time to say that I no longer have any need of this crap-ass Group as long as it allows dick-sucking vermin like Bass to do what he does here! I neither have the time nor energy to waste wading thru the rhetoric and idiot shit he spews here. My time and talent is best served on other sites that are considerate, professional and helpful to their respective members. The miniscule VALUABLE information I gleen from here is not worth finding wading thru the Nonsense that FATASS dumps on here! That's it for me- Good Luck to All- Jim and Frank, Keep kicking his ass till the cows come home- but watch that your foot doesn't get stuck there! To You Mr. Bass- you are nothing more than the arrogant c*ck-sucking leach that Jim and Frank identify you as - you are a wanna- be credential-less detested pile of crap- Hope you Ticker holds out you sack of shit! In the of the Alien in "Independence Day"- when the President asks- "what do you want us to do?" Answer: "DIE"!
He knows better than that. Professional companies don't and most cases can't do that. He is assuming, because when he was in business and being unlicensed himself , he could get away with it so he thinks it is a normal method of operation. He has heard about the old days of subcontact piece workers hired by the lick'm and stick'ms companies that aren't around anymore. Even the Authorized dealers that started with that old mentallity are being realed in to comply. Just another piece of evidence showing that he is soooooo far removed from the business today, that when he makes such accusations, he doesn't make just an bASS out of himself, but literally sounds stupid.
To bad someone doesn't post what you buy your equipment for and than the markup. Or that you actually sell things you received for free. I understand that your margins are getting less and less however. hey hey hey!!!!
The CS usually provides the dealer
What a pretty picture you paint. If it was so profitable, why did you get out? Is the unsuspecting DIYer market an easier pinch, simply **more** profitable or that is it a convicted felon can only work behind the scenes.
"Optional" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
All systems are permitted, inspected and user registrations applied for in most all major muncipalities here in Florida. In serveral cities, you cannot get a user permit without a building permit and approved inspection. As far as specialized skills, that is left open to interpetation. What comes easily to some (with or without experience) is very troublesome to others. Fishing for wires in behind walls for instance. Drilling blind with 48" to 72" drill bits for instance. Drywall patching and texturing without making it look like a patch for instance, removing molding without it turning into toothpicks for instance, mounting a device so that when closing the nearest door it doesn't fall off the wall for instance, drilling a window or door wall and not have the glass crack or literally shatter for instance, not hitting electric wires in behind walls when your drilling for instance, water (plumbing pipes) are fun too, not drilling up through the roof when drilling into the attic for instance, knowing how to do attic work without disturbing installation, a/c ducts, or most commonly, putting your foot through the ceiling for instance, making penetrations through fire walls, fire stops, draft stops, demizing walls, adding proper sleeving, proper fire barrier caulking for instance, proper locations for devices and proper devices for locations for instance, proper classification of wire for certain applications for instance and I am not refering to guage, and we haven't even tried to make it work yet. Special skills are not just hand eye coordination, turning of a screwdriver, etc. but also the knowledge that is accummulated over a long period of time. Reading a book or taking some instructions over the phone is a minimum. You won't know the full magnitude until you dive into it.
I could not have said it better myself. The "specialized skills" are not something that can be taught, finesse can only be gained through experience.
In the area of California that I worked in (and grew up in), new homes of a specific square footage or larger, or multi-family dwellings are required to be sprinkled, and in some jurisdictions those sprinkler systems are required to be monitored. When I was in the field, the AHJ and the inspectors were a large part of our contracting.
I take a bit of umbrage at that comment as well. In Michigan we only need a state license to install fire alarms but it is our company policy to always have a licensed individual at least check on a site wether it is a fire system or not. Unlicensed techs are only turned loose after they prove themselves competent. This usually takes at least four to six months. By that time they are either capable of doing the job or they don't work for us anymore.
The fire alarm technician license requires a NICET level II before you can test for it.
We also undergo a background check prior to hiring on.
We do a lot of work in high end (multi-million dollar) 'vacation' homes so we take pride in our installations and any "hacks" that manage to make it through the job interview and background check don't last very long in the field. When your installers are drilling holes in doors and windows custom made out of mahogany (usually from down your way, Robert) you ensure that those installers know what the hell they are doing.
If the consumer takes a few minutes to check on the local companys (a primate with a telphone could do it - its not rocket science) he/she can find a reputable firm that will provide quality equipment and installation at a reasonable price.
Maybe a monkey with a screwdriver 'could' install a system but I bet he pops a hole in the vapor barrier fishing down an insulated wall....
The insurance company I use gives me a 15% discount on my annual rate for having burg/fire alarm monitored (5% non-monitored) but you have to provide them with a certificate of installation from the installing company. Since most companies (AFAIK) won't simply take your word that you have a system, ask specifically about how they verify a DIY installation and make sure you do it the way they want.
The other reason the insurance guys like the professional installation is that if you drill through a water pipe (or elctrial wire or any of a hundred other possible mishaps) - they pay to fix it, if I drill through one (not yet and don't plan on it) - my company's insurance pays to fix it.
As for wireless... Wireless systems and devices these days are pretty good and I even have two windows in my own home protected by wireless.
That being said, the doors, all the other windows, motions and smokes are wired because wired is just a whole lot easier in the long run. I prefer wired over wireless for many reasons.
The other thing to consider is even with a wireless system (unless it is one of those self contained "hang on the wall and plug into a phone jack" types) you still have to run wires for siren, keypads, telephone, ground and power at the very least.
If you are considering monitoring, are you familiar with how the alarm panel seizes the line and how that needs to be wired?
Take a trip to Home Depot and check out the 48" and 72" drill bits - they look easy to handle especiall with that nice "L" shaped tool that helps you control it... careful in the outside walls or you end up with all the insulaton in that particular stud space in a nice tight roll relentlessly holding your expensive new bit tightly in the wall.
I apololgize if I come off sounding like an arrogant bastard (I am not - really) but I have done takeovers on a few half finished DIY abortions and those are never good days.
I would reccomend you contact all the companies providing service in your area. Get references but more than that, drive around and look for homes with signs and stickers and stop in and ask them about their experience with the company they use.
If you are confident in your abilties then go for it - I put gas in my car and can change tires, belts and even a few hoses... but I let the pros screw with the brakes - just too damned important.
How important is the safety of your family?
OK - the post wasn't quite as quick as I intended. Sorry
That's good. Can every alarm company in Michigan say the same? If not, how can the client know that the salesman in his living room represents a good company like yours or a fly-by-night, incompetent con artist like Fowler?
By your firm, ok. What about all the rest? Like I said above (just north of the umbrage part) some are great and some are well, Fowler.
That's great. The problem is the guys you fire for incompetence go right down the street to work for dolts like Fowler, Sabodish and others of the same ilk who couldn't care less about quality.
The problem with that is it only detects convictions. It won't reveal much at all about whether he's honest. In all the years I ran my own alarm company I fired only three people -- two for being lazy and one for dishonesty. The one was a competent installer but when he accidentally broke an inexpensive item in a customer's basement, instead of telling me and the customer about it he tried to hide it. When I found out about it I had to let him go. That guy had no criminal record -- not even a traffic ticket. But he was not trustworthy.
OTOH, I was entrusted with the security of over a thousand homes and businesses. In my office was a key safe containing keys to hundreds of clients' premises. I never even so much as considered taking anything or doing anything dishonest. Yet I'd fail your test because of a 30-year-old assault conviction. So what does the background check really tell you?
Mahogany windows? Not from here I think. Perhaps the Philippines?
You do and I always did. Please don't take my comments about a portion of the industry as being intended toward companies like yours. I think I was clear that there are both good and bad installers. The problem is the customer can't often tell which he's going to get.
I disagree. Though there are plenty of good, competent firms offering alarm services, the consumer has a very hard time distinguishing them from the hacks. Just look at the number of systems the so-called "authorized dealers" are slopping in every day. Add to that the volume that hundreds of garbage firms like Milford sell and you have a tidal wave of junk alarm work. If it were easy for consumers to spot the gems and the turds Fowler, Sabodish and people like them would be out of business in no time.
That depends on the kind of instruction he gets more than anything else. If the online store provides good support the DIYer stands a very good chance of having an excellent system.
Absent that, a bill of sale describing the alarm system, accompanied by a written statement from the installer (in this case the DIYer) will usually do. I've dealt with this hundreds of times.
Often the windows are hand made in England (with ropes and weights no less) but the bragging rights are always becasue they are made from "Brazillian Mahogany"
Checking references doing a tiny bit of research on a company you are thinking of doing business with is not hard... just a bit inconvenient. Which is enough for most folks to skip it - myself included.
Just because a lot of consumers don't do smething doesn't mean its not easy.
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