Rough pricing question

It would be impossible for me to give you any estimate based on the information you have given. More information is needed just to wag it. Here are some of the missing items:

1) What AHJ has the regualtions (if any) on the work you wish to be performed? Is this job going to require submittals and O&M manuals? What is the existing door harware. Who pays to replace it if necessary. You idea of a single technology REX has the potential to get someone hurt or killed. 2) The first door is read in and read out? There should be more to that door bid, like at least an intercom to allow people to get let in when they forget to read out; especially if there are other doors that are REX only? Why have read in and read out? Is not even legal in most places to have that as a sole means of egress. 3) What front end? Who supplies the computer? Is this an add on upgrade or new system? A maximum of 16 doors doesn't mean much. 16 doors of NStar versus 16 doors of Keyscan, versus 16 doors of Software House represents a huge difference in price just on brand and features. 4) Fire alarm interface? Who pays? Customer or dealer? 5) Interface to visitor management and CCTV? 6) Pole maounted gear out of doors. Who saws the lot and pipes it? Or is it RF? What kind of building mounts? 7) To calculate storage for 21 days is not possible unless you also know the CIF and frame rate and idle times etc. 8) Motion sensing? If you don't have record on motion you will have lots of fun reviewing video. No smart search? No analytics? Buy lots of Coke and popcorn. 9) No one does VHS and dumps to printer on today's new systems. Why would you? 10) Will this system have a badge printer?

Round numbers? $2500.00 per regular door of access. $5500 for DVR $2800 per PTZ $A bunch for Labor

Sounds like you're client may be going for the lowest bid which will equal lowest satisfaction, lowest performance and lowest quality. Most companies will negotiate a fixed price for well defined work. I don't think our company would bid this if asked. There is too much work in bid prep and we are too busy to waste time on maybe work when there is for certain work that is waiting to be done. I bet that may be the case where you are as well. If the bids come in with brand names like Geovision, Video-Insight, Everfocus, General Solutions, Clover, Speco, NStar, and DoorKing just to name a few then you know the bid you have is near rock bottom because that gear is priced in the mud. If you have gear like American Dynamics, Bosch, Integral Technologies, I3DVR, AMAG, Johnson Controls, Lenel, and Software House to name a few more then you have found the mid range and higher.

As far as we can tell, the city hasn't really put much thought into anything that doesn't call them, and the county just flat doesn't care.

Nonexistent once the current provider is ditched. Think little holes where equipment should be and wires yanked out of the walls.

Nothing so fancy; we just want it to deny access unless a valid cars is used, and log each entry/exit. If someone wants to exit twelve times without coming in, that's fine, just log it. Traffic is so heavy at that door during shift changes, I doubt we could enforce a "don't hold it for the next guy" policy from there with a shotgun.

Obviously there would be a big red button on the frame, preferably with some sort of squealer to discourage its misuse, to let anyone out without a card.

Effectively new system, since everything is currently leased from a vendor they want to ditch, and all we need is; if a valid card is presented, open the door and log who/when, if a button is pushed, open the door and maybe log when. Something that can display in realtime what card is being used where and match it to a name would be preferred. Who provides the computer depends on whether it costs more to have one provided than for us to provide it, though interfacing with the existing network (to allow HR or a supervisor to look at the records directly) would be greatly preferred.

Would it even be necessary with an exit button available?

Not really; if there's a cheap way to do it, maybe, but as it stands, we just have a couple of numbered visitor cards, and everybody else has to be escorted at all times.

Not to sound like a broken record, but what's cheapest? If you charge more for the outside cable runs than facilities maintenance can do them for, then they'll do them. All the building mounts are currently U-bolted to the supports on the corrugated metal.

Obviously that would depend on the use of each camera; the two sweeping the parking lots would need a higher frame rate and resolution than the two sets of face and gate cams. Figure our current settings are "crappy" and "doesn't matter much since it's out of focus anyway."

As it stands, our smart search algorithm consists of either the guard remembering when something happened, or guessing times until it's narrowed down. Record on motion would only help with the rest of the system on holidays, since the rest of the time there's a lot of milling around going on all over the site. If we look at a camera and don't see something moving, we generally assume it's failed.

Because our local PD handles getting a floppy of JPGs by sending it home with one of their officers to print them out. They only got a DVD player at the station a couple years back amd the record/playback in their cars is all VHS. If we need them to act on something, hardcopy stills and VHS are the way to go.

Yes.

Presumably, since you don't list recurring costs, this is for purchase, rather than lease? Either is acceptable, as long as we know what ballpark we're in.

Gee, you're an intuitive sort, aren't you? :)

Since we're the only ones who really use the camera system, we're trying to give them some ideas of what could be improved when they do the changeover without too much increase in price. Unfortunately the current vendor promised them the moon, and delivered, for the most part, a marginally useful system. Two cameras (the parking lot sweeps) do what they're supposed to, while the rest are either badly positioned, out of focus. or have apparently unresolvable problems with night mode.

Well, I suppose I could narrow a lot of it down, but we're a bit out of the loop due to a site supervisor (our guy, not the client's) who "didn't want to be bothered about none of that fancy junk" when they asked him what the system would need to do. Now that he's seen what that attitude got us, he's on board with the idea that we need to be more involved in things like this, and we're trying to get back in the loop before it happens again

No...the case where we are is that there's nobody within 65 miles that deals with this stuff on a regular basis, so the client rep apparently went with the first company that would send out a smooth-talking sales rep who told him what was needed. As such, we have gate cameras mounted 15 feet up, practically directly over the callbox area, so we can clearly see the roof of a vehicle waiting to get in, and for the annual lease price, they could hire two more full time guards with handheld cameras and binoculars.

Please read NFPA 101 regarding restricting egress. A "big red button" and a "squealer" does not meet life safety code. Think of the liability involved if you restict egress during an emergency and someone gets hurt or killed. There is a very specific way that you can provide a entry/exit reader on an agress door. If you are going to be designing these systems, it's something you ought to brush up on.

Yeah, it's absolutely required. If you plan on restricting agress, you must connect to the building fire alarm system so that an alarm shunts power at the locking device. I don't want to sound insulting, but designs like this are best left to someone with the proper training regarding applicable codes and industry best practices. I know you're just looking for a check price, but with the growth in the access control industry over the past several years, it seems that there are a lot of people who are putting this stuff in without really knowing what they're doing. I guess anybody with a checkbook and ADI's phone number can lock somebody in a burning building.

That said it still won't be an excuse not to do things correctly, it just means no inspection or engineering time accociated with that event.

It sounds like you have (or had) magnetic locks. From what you describe it would be better to have your maintenance guys install a delayed egress rim alarmed panic exit device. A red button won't come close to doing the job right. You might have a city inspection department that doesn't care about electronic access control but, believe it or not, might get excited about door hardware. If you can install a rim panic device then a lock like this

might work with it. Without seeing the doors it is not possible to know what you need to secure the doors properly.

It sounds like you have answered your own question. Was it "cheaper" to have to rip the gear out you have and start over? Mounts & Mounting Brackets

look at them. Understand how the right mount can improve what you're able to see.

This is decent stuff priced at the lower (no LOWEST) end. Continental Instruments

?main.aspKeyscan

If you are not satisfied with your current camera setup there are many reas>

If there is a fire suppression system or a fire alarm system on the premises, the FM can require that delayed egress locks be integrated with the system for immediate release if the alarm or the sprinklers are tripped.

Even though they may not care now, inspectors can and do change their attitude about things, especially after there's been a fatal fire in the area. Best to select a device that can be interconnected just in case.

The problem there is that both doors are double doors, and have to be; large stuff goes in and out from time to time, so both sides have to be easily opened. (i.e. we can't lock one leaf for a rim lock to catch on)

Currently, one set has a big green "push to exit" button on the frame, and the other has touch-sensitive crash bars for exit; that's the one we want to be swipe-in/swipe-out. Both are magnetic locks, and the latter set is metal-framed 2-pane glass doors.

Well, we can use a green button just like the other set. :)

What we need, though, is something easy to use, but hard to accidentally set off. (My desk, the HR department, and a couple of executive offices are within 30ft of that door, so frequent false alarms would *not* be a good thing.)

If it was just done wrong, it apparently would have been cheaper. From what we can tell, it was done barely right and as cheaply as possible, while charging for (and promising) the perfect, easily expandable system.

Looks like their parapet mount is pretty similar to what we're using on most of the cameras. The greater issue there is that they were put in at bad angles; our executive lot is hidden behind the pole of the one camera that would be able to see it, and another is mounted about eight inches too low to see a prime potential trouble spot.

Yes, it would. Part of my problem is that when they got this system, they were taking the sales rep's word for it on what they needed, and we either don't use or can't use a good percentage of the features it has, and can't find any evidence that it has some of the features promised.

Thanks for the links; I'll print some of those spec sheets and go over them this week.

Looks like we're headed in the right direction here. I notice that these appear to be pretty much self-contained units, though, with a 150-key capacity. Unless I'm missing something, they don't seem to list any I/O for a monitoring system or for a separate card reader. Since the site is about 800 employees total, the primary (swipe in/swipe out) door would have to be able to handle that. 150 *might* handle the office staff at the other double doors, and would certainly be plenty for the two single doors, but both of those would have a greater need for realtime monitoring.

Locknetics Magforce 101+ maglocks on the doors with entry/ exit readers.

I still have not been able to determine what you want or what the customer needs through this whole thread. You better get it right, looks like you're headed for a disaster.

Take a step back.. 800 employees??? That's not what you said in the beginning. This ain't going to be cheap.

"What we need, though, is something easy to use, but hard to accidentally set off. (My desk, the HR department, and a couple of executive offices are within 30ft of that door, so frequent false alarms would *not* be a good thing.)"

Ahhhhhh............

Nevermind... I see you are the CLIENT, not the installer... No wonder you keep suggesting shortcuts and illegal means of egress.

Sir,

There are regulations regarding access control, your state has control of the regulations. Anything you get from this forum is education only, the AHJ will determine what shall be installed.

They can be configured to be used as "regular" maglocks on most any access control system. They've got a bunch of different options for each model lock. We use them a lot to keep unauthorized people from going outside a building into a protected area. Think airport terminal dumping into a controlled outdoor area. If there is a life threatening emergency, however, people must be able to get out.