Re: Causes of Ground Faults

1)Poor workmanship. Using cutters to crimp beans leaving a gap in the
insulation and the gap touching a grounded back box.
2)Water or moisture from running cables in underground pipes where they get
flooded and the wire soaks.
3)Telephone line induced grounds. Out of range Telco voltage can be
interpreted by some panels as a ground.
I have been asked to present a training seminar regarding fire alarm
> systems, in particular addressable systems. I am looking for common
> causes of Ground Fault Troubles that people have come across. Any one? >
Reply to
Roland
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Now, now, Roland... no beanies on a FA!
Yup.
Never seen that, must be that Boosh crap!
Reply to
G. Morgan
good catch, wire nuts only, eh.
think bass can come up with anything off the internet to make it sound like he knows what he's talking about?
Reply to
Don
Sure, he'll search the archives of this group and re-brand it!
Reply to
G. Morgan
From the burg loop on combo burg fire panels (where otherwise legal). Some folks use beans on the burg side, and some use cutters to crimp the beans, and some have problems with foreign grounds because of that. I have had to trouble shoot those before where the burg loop trashes the fire system for that reason or a number of other issues. One reason I hate to deploy combo burg/fire panels, especially on larger systems. I am sure I am not the only one who has had this problem.
No, not a Bosch problem, it is a known issue on the Honeywell Vista-250FBP actually. They might not think of it as an issue but I do. Call tech support and hear the truth from them. Actually you'll hear more about it than you can stand because they won't tell you how to fix it. A Bosch problem is usually a really strange one. Like this one for example:
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Reply to
Roland
You seem to have had a bad experience or two with that system.. Is the GF when the line switches to L2 for periodic test every 48 hours?
Reply to
G. Morgan
No, it is when you leave the phone line connected and do a direct download with a laptop. The laptop alone doesn't fault it, just the two together.
Reply to
Roland
Never tried that. I've only worked on one 250FB panel though, and it was always remote downloaded.
I did notice an anomaly with some 128FB panels that sent a TLM trouble in between tests, at test time, that's why I asked.
That doesn't appear to be a huge issue since you'll be taking your laptop with you though. I'm sure it was frustrating at the time, but you just saved a lot of us aggravation, guinea pig!
Good to know in case I run into it though, thanks $1,000,000.
Reply to
G. Morgan
In this area, the AHJ does not permit combo systems. Before that, yes, I had one on the front door of a conveinence store, and it only registered the ground fault when the door opened (every few minutes or so). Otherwise, it would go away. Talk about pulling my hair out!
Reply to
Michael
Vista 128 does it also wth the direct downloader. I thought it was just the foreign ground, didn't try putting one in without phone lines.
The EST2 does it also when you connect to direct download... but only if the laptop power supply has a three pronged plug.
Reply to
Michael
The Bosch combo system can be made to ignore grounds on sec loops, and initiate trouble on fire loops..., provided they are separate (as they shall per. code) But I don't like Bosch systems... My hated comes from Radix, but now they Boooosh get the title.
The only time I've used combo systems on commercial was for smoke above the panel and pull stations for a night club, and water flow supervisory.
Reply to
G. Morgan
Solder and tape. Only way to fly.
Sure, to the psuedo-electronics-educated "I think I can" crowd he peddles to...
Reply to
Stanley Barthfarkle
Nope, not on a fire alarm.
It has to be serviceable. No permanent connections.
Ask Mike Baker for the code section , not my cup o' tea - but 'da code nonetheless.
Reply to
G. Morgan
Here in St. Louis, per the AHJ, all commercial fire systems have to have accessible splices, which are required to be soldered and taped, with an appropriate service loop provided. Plastic splice boxes are permitted for low voltage.
If you used wire nuts here, the AHJ would throw you off the job after he finished laughing.
BTW- you won't get onto any large commercial/industrial sites here without a union card. Ours is IBEW Local #1, the first and oldest electrical worker's union in the nation.
Reply to
Stanley Barthfarkle
Also the oldest mafia-connected union in Mo. Why am I not surprised?
Reply to
Robert L Bass
We all know what idiots AHJs can be sometimes, but if you guys think wire nuts are not allowed on fire alarms, I challenge you to show me the code section that prohibits them.
Both power wiring and fire alarm wiring are regulated by the NEC. If UL listed wire nuts are acceptable for splicing light and power wiring, then they must also be acceptable for splicing fire alarm wiring. Of course, you wouldn't use red wire nuts to splice two 18 gauge wires, but if you use the correct size, I say it's NEC compliant.
Solder and tape is also recognized by the NEC as an acceptable method of splicing wires. Somebody show me where it says you can't splice fire alarm wire that way.
I am less confident about the use of jellybeans, since I don't use them at all. However, they are UL recognized, and so long as wire size limitations are not exceeded for those connectors, I suspect they are legal as well.
- badenov
Reply to
Nomen Nescio
I certainly never said you couldn't or shouldn't use wire nuts- just that you can't use them here on FA. Won't fly.
Reply to
Stanley Barthfarkle
Yeah, I never liked giving those bozos my money, especially when the 'A' card guys (regular electricians, as opposed to our low-voltage 'BA' card) got all the benefits through the hall. Our dues were tantamount to paying a small bribe every month in order to gain access to the larger jobsites. When I started my company, and entertained the idea of keeping my card to access the big jobs, my "meeting" with the union bosses felt like a shakedown- 4 or 5 slimy looking guys eyeballing me and firing off questions about loyalty, revenue, etc. Needless to say, my small company didn't end up doing many commercial jobs here.
On the Trans World Dome project in '95 (which was delayed by several months mainly because of the squabbles among Local #1), we were carrying in video monitors for the camera system for the foodservice vendor, who operates a secure food and liquor storage area, and a highly secure "cash counting" room. An 'A' card foreman came over and told us to put the monitors down- he said it was an electrician's job, since they had plug-in cords. It was horse shit, but our office gave the bozos a couple hundred bucks to haul in our monitors and set them on our shelves.
I think they never quite got over the loss of FA and conduit jobs after FA went low-voltage open cable. OTOH, you'll never see any finer work anywhere in the country than that of our group of guys. Very uniform and professional.
Reply to
Stanley Barthfarkle

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